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billvon 2,991
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>For daytime competition, Nah. If you like jumping at night by all means go for it.
I'd say that competitors need it even _more_ than anyone else. Trust me, once you're on a high level team, there's no way you are going to pull off a load just because the meet director asked all the teams to push the sunset to finish 8-way before the storms hit.
Competitors often push the limits of endurance, jumps per day, lift capability, fallrate etc etc. They're the ones who most need the experience/training to be able to do that safely.
I'd say that competitors need it even _more_ than anyone else. Trust me, once you're on a high level team, there's no way you are going to pull off a load just because the meet director asked all the teams to push the sunset to finish 8-way before the storms hit.
Competitors often push the limits of endurance, jumps per day, lift capability, fallrate etc etc. They're the ones who most need the experience/training to be able to do that safely.
Quote>For daytime competition, Nah. If you like jumping at night by all means go for it.
I'd say that competitors need it even _more_ than anyone else. Trust me, once you're on a high level team, there's no way you are going to pull off a load just because the meet director asked all the teams to push the sunset to finish 8-way before the storms hit.
Competitors often push the limits of endurance, jumps per day, lift capability, fallrate etc etc. They're the ones who most need the experience/training to be able to do that safely.
If the jump is past legal sunset, and they do not have the required lighting, the jumps are illegal.
The Meet Director is asking teams to make illegal jumps?
That is troubling.
QuoteQuoteThat would mean not getting on some of those sunset loads that are so damn cool and beautiful.
No harm in being experienced with it, huh?
Matt
"No harm"? Only if we make those jumps legally.
If those cool sunset loads go past legal sunset, and do not have the FAA required 3-mile-visible lighting, they are ILLEGAL.
Experience is fine and a very good thing, but get it LEGALLY.
The BSRs require us to make all our skydives in compliance with all applicable laws, and the applicable law requires that light.
My "No Harm" comment did not imply to violate the FAR's nor the BSR's. I simply meant that having the experience of two well executed night jumps could give the Skydiver experience that could help them be safe, from "harm", when they find them selves in a less than ideal lighting situation.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
billvon 2,991
>The Meet Director is asking teams to make illegal jumps?
Not at all! The meet director simply asked them if they would be willing to take it right to sunset. They said OK because, well, almost no competitor is ever going to say no to that. Then something completely beyond anyone's control occurs - say, there's a goaround, or the plane breaks and they roll up other Otter ten minutes later, and it's the slow plane, and it takes an extra ten minutes. Or several of the above occur.
And they're jumping after sunset. Is that anyone's fault? Not really. Does it happen? Yep. And when it does happen, having some experience jumping after sunset can be invaluable.
Not at all! The meet director simply asked them if they would be willing to take it right to sunset. They said OK because, well, almost no competitor is ever going to say no to that. Then something completely beyond anyone's control occurs - say, there's a goaround, or the plane breaks and they roll up other Otter ten minutes later, and it's the slow plane, and it takes an extra ten minutes. Or several of the above occur.
And they're jumping after sunset. Is that anyone's fault? Not really. Does it happen? Yep. And when it does happen, having some experience jumping after sunset can be invaluable.
QuoteQuote>For daytime competition, Nah. If you like jumping at night by all means go for it.
I'd say that competitors need it even _more_ than anyone else. Trust me, once you're on a high level team, there's no way you are going to pull off a load just because the meet director asked all the teams to push the sunset to finish 8-way before the storms hit.
Competitors often push the limits of endurance, jumps per day, lift capability, fallrate etc etc. They're the ones who most need the experience/training to be able to do that safely.
If the jump is past legal sunset, and they do not have the required lighting, the jumps are illegal.
The Meet Director is asking teams to make illegal jumps?
That is troubling.
It certainly is.
Quote>The Meet Director is asking teams to make illegal jumps?
Not at all! The meet director simply asked them if they would be willing to take it right to sunset. They said OK because, well, almost no competitor is ever going to say no to that. Then something completely beyond anyone's control occurs - say, there's a goaround, or the plane breaks and they roll up other Otter ten minutes later, and it's the slow plane, and it takes an extra ten minutes. Or several of the above occur.
And they're jumping after sunset. Is that anyone's fault? Not really. Does it happen? Yep. And when it does happen, having some experience jumping after sunset can be invaluable.
Fault is of no consequence. If they jump after sunset without the required lights, they have broken the law.
Now, maybe that's going to happen at the local dz from time to time.
But it is inexcusable for it to happen in an official competition of the USPA.
In fact, I would have to say that jumps made illegally must not be counted as far as the competition is concerned.
The FARs are not little toy rules to be be bent when possible, while we all snicker and think "How cool are we?".
They are the real laws of our land (here in the USA).
The pilot of that aircraft can actually lose his pilot certificate over such a jump.
It is completely inexcusable that USPA would be a party in any way to such a thing.
Quote
And they're jumping after sunset. Is that anyone's fault? Not really.
Geez, Bill. You make it sound like nobody has any control over when they step out of an aircraft in those cases. Are competitors completely at the mercy of a meet director?
QuoteDoes it happen? Yep. And when it does happen, having some experience jumping after sunset can be invaluable.
Abso-freakin-lutely!
Wouldn't it be nice to have the training and experience before it's needed?
Earlier than D would be nice. Requirement for D is misplaced.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteQuoteQuote
Or 'THEY' could just lose the skirt and make the damn skydive!
You seem to have a fixation on this "fear" thing. Wasssupwiddat?
Oh...you're in the "I had to do it so YOU have to do it" camp, right?
No...I'm from the "if I can do it ANYBODY can" camp!
Night jump experience is just one more simple tool to have in the toolbox that just might come in handy some day, whether you PLAN to need it or not.
The only fear fixation I have is with the carnival ride aspect some take in regard to preparation for involvement with the sport..."its' too hard to pack so I'll pay somebody...water jumps are stupid...night jumps unnecessary"
If that's the kind of skydiver one wants to be then okay, go for it...don't get the Master license, don't be a TM...just don't try to dumb everything up to make the rules fit your desires. What's next, don't train for certain types of malfunctions because they probably won't happen?
Half the day is made up of darkness, there's a pretty good chance if you stay with the sport for any length of time, having made a night jump will be beneficial in some way.
+1
I blame it on the “entitlement generation”. If you want a “D” license, earn it. No one is forced to complete the requirements.
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
QuoteNight jump experience is just one more simple tool to have in the toolbox that just might come in handy some day, whether you PLAN to need it or not.
And there's agreement to that....yes.
The question is when to get it.
D-license is late in the game, IMHO.
Making a requirement for Tandem only encourages those "after legal sunset" jumps.
QuoteIf that's the kind of skydiver one wants to be then okay, go for it...don't get the Master license, don't be a TM...just don't try to dumb everything up to make the rules fit your desires.
Nobody's "dumbing everything up". Reading that into the conversation is off-the-mark.
Since D is not "master", I like the idea of bringing back the E, calling it "Master" or "Expert" and making requirements for all those specialty jumps in order to qualify for it....with no dependencies attached.
QuoteWhat's next, don't train for certain types of malfunctions because they probably won't happen?
???? Let's not go to extremes here, please.
Quotehaving made a night jump will be beneficial in some way.
Yes. Nobody is against that.
Since the legality of those "sunset" jumps has been raised, making night jumps a requirement for Tandem only encourages those "after legal sunset" jumps.
My stance stays the same with respect to night jumps:
1. A good idea to have the training and experience.
2. D-license is late in the game if you're going to make it a requirement.
3. D-license requirement serves no real purpose.
4. USPA justification for D is senseless.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Quote
I blame it on the “entitlement generation”. If you want a “D” license, earn it. No one is forced to complete the requirements.
Sparky
Blame it on the "old school generation". I had to do it for D so you do too.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteQuote
I blame it on the “entitlement generation”. If you want a “D” license, earn it. No one is forced to complete the requirements.
Sparky
Blame it on the "old school generation". I had to do it for D so you do too.
So do we eliminate or waiver everything that is unpleasant, inconvenient and just make the requirements fit what the individual feels like doing? Why not just do away with license all together? Every 8 to 10 years we require less and less form people coming into the sport and then question why their knowledge of skydiving sucks.
But then I enjoyed jumping at night. I was on the first night 8 stack, actually 10, in 1980. You right I am “old school” and proud of it.
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
billvon 2,991
>Are competitors completely at the mercy of a meet director?
Not at all! They are at the mercy of their own competitive natures. (Last year's Nats was a good example of this in action.)
Everyone should always open their own parachute. In reality we know that people don't always do that - so using an AAD can, in the real world, be a lifesaver.
Everyone should always decide what their level of risk will be and jump (or not) based on that. In reality we know that people don't always do that - so experience with night jumps can, in the real world, be helpful.
>Earlier than D would be nice.
I'd generally agree there.
Not at all! They are at the mercy of their own competitive natures. (Last year's Nats was a good example of this in action.)
Everyone should always open their own parachute. In reality we know that people don't always do that - so using an AAD can, in the real world, be a lifesaver.
Everyone should always decide what their level of risk will be and jump (or not) based on that. In reality we know that people don't always do that - so experience with night jumps can, in the real world, be helpful.
>Earlier than D would be nice.
I'd generally agree there.
billvon 2,991
>If they jump after sunset without the required lights, they have broken the
>law. Now, maybe that's going to happen at the local dz from time to time.
Agreed and agreed - even if the people involved would tell you, if you asked them away from the pressure of an intense day of skydiving, that they wouldn't jump after sunset. Which is why those night jumps can be helpful.
>law. Now, maybe that's going to happen at the local dz from time to time.
Agreed and agreed - even if the people involved would tell you, if you asked them away from the pressure of an intense day of skydiving, that they wouldn't jump after sunset. Which is why those night jumps can be helpful.
Just poking at ya' Sparky.
I might be older than you...maybe.
I'm enjoying my monthly SS checks, too.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteJust poking at ya' Sparky.
I might be older than you...maybe.
I'm enjoying my monthly SS checks, too.
The amount I get for SS is hardly something to enjoy.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
hofstar 0
QuoteIn all this debate no one has clearly stated what legitimate purpose requiring night jumps serve. Edit: I can't identify any.
1) Having a D-license makes you eligible for a PRO rating which often involves jumping at night. I think it would be a terrible idea to do a nighttime demo if you've never executed a night jump under controlled circumstances.
2) Licenses are meant to be a demonstration of proficiency. Jumping at night demonstrates that we can safely jump under severely hindered visual conditions.
I agree with the sentiment that canopy proficiency is probably lacking in the USPA license requirements...but that is a separate topic.
BLUF: No one NEEDS a D-license. If you don't feel up to satisfying all of the requirements, then don't.
Cheers!
"No harm"? Only if we make those jumps legally.
If those cool sunset loads go past legal sunset, and do not have the FAA required 3-mile-visible lighting, they are ILLEGAL.
Experience is fine and a very good thing, but get it LEGALLY.
The BSRs require us to make all our skydives in compliance with all applicable laws, and the applicable law requires that light.
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