Main flaps: Infinity vs. Mirage?

[kelel01 1]

For freeflying purposes, which is better? The tuck flap that goes in UNDER the pin (like Infinity), or the one that tucks in OVER the pin (like Mirage)? Any preferences?

I'm thinking about buying an Infinity, but the main flap is my one hang up, given that my unravelin' Javelin flap comes open in freefall.

Thanks!

Kelly

[Jimbo 0]

A flap that stays closed is better for freeflying.

I have no doubt that the flap on my Infinity will stay where it belongs during any skydive. That thing is tight, it isn't going anywhere.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[diablopilot 2]

Whatever stays closed is the best.

The Infinity design is unlike the Javelin.

I have 2 Infinitys, and a Mirage G4.1 and none has EVER come open prior to deployment to my knowlage.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[hookitt 1]

The Infinity does tuck under but it's no Javelin. It stays shut. One thing I like about the main cover flap on the Infinity is that its' wider than any "up" flap design, and provides great pin protection. It's design (unlike many javelins) doesn't allow much air into the sides and there's a lot more tension holding it closed.

The up design is inherently bad However, the manufacturers have done a pretty darn good job stiffening them up and making them longer.

Honestly, you won't go wrong with either rig. Out of the 2, my personal choice would be the Infinity.

[diablopilot 2]

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The up design is inherently bad

Your thought behind this?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[FrogNog 1]

They're both great, from what I've personally seen, personally packed, and been told.

Some recent Mirages I jumped, like a Wings I also jumped, have over-hangy main container side flaps so the PC bridle can be covered 100% of the way from the BOC to the pin. My Infinity tends to have .5" of PC bridle exposed where it exits the BOC and goes under the side flap.

I don't think .5" of PC bridle exposure at that point is really going to make a difference in safety. So I decide which rig to get on other factors (which have been well-discussed elsewhere).

Back to the post topic: I love my Infinity's main flap. It's tight; I trust it. I think it has more retention force than the Mirage / Wings design (which seemed to just "slip" under its retainer, but the amount of scraping that would be required to dislodge any of these is outside safe skydiving parameters; if the main flap pops open on any of these rigs, I'm going to search for what I did wrong, not a "better" rig.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[johnny1488 1]

how old is your javelin and who packs the main? I have seen some sloppy ass packjobs on the javelins Ive seen open. There is no way in hell my javelin would easily come open when I pack it. Closing loop length lends itself a lot to this also.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[sundevil777 102]

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Closing loop length lends itself a lot to this also.

The infinity main flap will be equally secure regardless of the length of the closing loop, because it doesn't 'hold' onto anything but the top flap, which it is a part of.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Chrisky 0]

Had a jav myself, proper PJs, flap tended to come open. Last week jumping with a buddy we checked the tab of his jav on the ground, seemed ok, came open in FF several times. It's at the riggers' now to get a little elastic sewn to it so the tuck won't come undone that easy. I think once the material between the tab and the cover flap becomes softened by long use, it's more likely to "untuck". I've seen it quite often with javelins so far (including video of me...), and i can't see why they don't move on to a self-tucking flap.

I have an up-tucking Wings now which stays shut, period. Personally i would not get another under-tucking design again, because the idea of the Main flap tucking back into itself seems more foolproof in any orientation with any sloppy PJ to me.

From all i've read about the infinity (exclusively positive), there's no reason not to get one, either.
My 2 cents.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[MarkM 0]

I didn't think any of the newer containers had main flap opening issues anymore.

The main thing I like about my Mirage is the freefly handle instead of the regular hackey handle. It really secures my PC and I think it's much less likely to snag on something in the plane.

[Ncrowe 0]

Buy an infinity , all the kids are doing it.

"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "

[hookitt 1]

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Your thought behind this?

Sure

Don't forget to add the rest of my comments about it though

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However, the manufacturers have done a pretty darn good job stiffening them up and making them longer.

That should partially explain it. Perhaps bad is the wrong word but it is inherently more apt to come open.

The Up Design originally had very little to hold it in place. On the Drawing board it was fine. Packed up it would come open all the time. Go to a head down and the flap would just come out. There was just too large a distance from the anchor point to the tuck in.

Vectors were stiffer from the start but sometimes would fall out during freefly maneuvers. RWS was pretty good about fixing that problem right away. Early wings were open very often. There simply wasn't enough length or stiffness to keep it pushed up into the decorative flap. Mirage has had it's troubles as well.

What I know, is the Infinity tuck under design is more secure than the others. Sundevil pointed out that regardless of loop length, the infinity tuck under would stay secure. Heck I can show you why it stays closed better than other rigs but ya gotta be looking at the rigs.

Mirage has always been pretty good for staying shut. Wings was terrible for a while. The Main flap is longer and stiffer and I think it's anchor point has been changed just a little as well. (sorry, I don't have a wings here to look at) It does a much better job of staying shut. Even Garreth would have to admit to how the wings main flap opened and that was just last season. There's too much video of Toe up, and the Chris's to deny it.

Since there's no tension to hold the flap in place, simple cartwheels or just being a floater on the outside of an aircraft would allow air under the main flap and open it.

Wings is much improved but I think the main flap should be wider. Mirage is good and seems to have been pretty good from the start.

Like I said previously, you won't go wrong with either rig. My personal preferrence is the Infinity.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[diablopilot 2]

Agreed. I prefer a probperly designed down tuck myself. Just wanted to get you to share your thoughts....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Tonto 1]

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I have 2 Infinitys, and a Mirage G4.1 and none has EVER come open prior to deployment to my knowlage.

The Mirage Main flap stays closed even during deployment. the only wear on the flap is when you (or your packer) opens it to repack the rig.

Flaps that get opened during deployment are obviously exposed to more wear.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Rdutch 0]

Kelly designed the reverse flap on the Vectors, which was copied my Mirage. Im sure he took into consideration just this question when he chose to use the flap he uses now. I think correctly designed both flaps work equally well.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[Jeffrey 1]

[Kelly designed the reverse flap on the Vectors, which was copied my Mirage.]

Ray,

Where did you get this info?

Jeff

[Rdutch 0]

Its no secret, but actually Bill told me it. Not the copied by Mirage thing, but thats no secret either.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[kelel01 1]

Thanks for all the responses! I guess nowadays you sort of can't go wrong . . . and I was leaning towards the Infinity anyway.

I am going to go back and thoroughly read these answers, though, so I can make sure I get more than just the general idea of all of this.

Thanks again!

Kelly

[kelel01 1]

By the way, my Jav is a 93, and my rigger just replaced the tuck tab, and it seems much more secure now. You can almost pick up the rig by the main flap.

I do have a 170 in it, which is a little on the tight side, so that might have something to do with it as well. I just don't want a horseshoe malfunction, and if I buy a brand new rig, I want it as secure as I can get it.
Kelly

[Jeffrey 1]

Ray,

Not to take anything away from Kelly. He’s a good friend of mine and he builds a good rig, He shuld be proud of his accomplishments. But during the Vector 3 project, Kelly worked in the parts department. The reserve configuration you speak of, I designed. Also, its design has nothing in common with the Mirage reserve configuration.

Jeff

[Remster 30]

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The reserve configuration you speak of, I designed

I though we were talking about the main closing flaps? Maybe I'm just confused...

Remster

[hookitt 1]

Just to clarify,

Reverse... as in the upward facing main cover flap.

[Rdutch 0]

PM sent, was that what you were thinking about? I was talking about the flap.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[KellyF 16]

Jeff is right, I worked in the parts dept. while he was doing R&D. Before the V-3 project was started (he was still working on the dual PC rig) I mentioned an idea for a main pin cover that I had come up with the night before and had never seen. I described it to Jeff, but never drew a picture or anything. Jeff built the first center flap for the V-3 with this pin cover, and it turned out the same way I had pictured it in my mind. It could be said that Jeff designed it since he drew the patterns, but would he have drawn them if I hadn't shared my idea? That's one of those things we'll never know the answer to

[dgskydive 0]

People hate to check my pin on the plane because my Infinity tuck tab is so hard to open.

I have only had it come open once in freefall and that was after eating most of the back side of the door on a 10 way exit. OUCH!!!! I got hit from the right side and sandwiched between the back of the door and another jumper.

Dom