didi_br 0 #1 August 27, 2004 Hi guys, i´m from Fortaleza in NorthEast of Brazil. here we have a problem with the winds, our annual average is 18 Kts. and i would like kwow, what is better? I use a Sabre or a Manta in my studebnts rigs? thanx Didi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usskydiver 0 #2 August 27, 2004 Navigators or Sihlouette's in proper sizes (they are the same "wing") will be your best option IMO. Tim T. Team Paraclete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #3 August 27, 2004 To my oppinion students should not jump with 18kts. Immagine a student landing downwind without flaring ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #4 August 27, 2004 QuoteTo my opinion students should not jump with 18kts. Imagine a student landing downwind without flaring >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ignore the numbers. When students start backing up under canopy, stop dropping them. Backwards PLFs cause far too many spine and head injuries, because few students do not do them correct instinctively. Backwards PLFs are an unnatural act. Sabres are passe' for students. If you are going to spend the money, buy specialized student canopies incorporating ZP fabric: (Aerodyne) Solo, (Flight Concepts) Manta, (Icarus) ??, (PD) Navigator, (PISA) Skymaster, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #5 August 27, 2004 I jumped 220, 260 and 280 PD Navigators during my student status, they are all very forgiving canopies, even taking into account I was far exceeding PD's recommended "student" exit weight on the 220 I was jumping by the time I got my A license (I am about 200lbs out the door). I really can't complain about them at all... they are also easy to pack. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #6 August 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteTo my opinion students should not jump with 18kts. Imagine a student landing downwind without flaring >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ignore the numbers. When students start backing up under canopy, stop dropping them. Backwards PLFs cause far too many spine and head injuries, because few students do not do them correct instinctively. Backwards PLFs are an unnatural act. Sabres are passe' for students. If you are going to spend the money, buy specialized student canopies incorporating ZP fabric: (Aerodyne) Solo, (Flight Concepts) Manta, (Icarus) ??, (PD) Navigator, (PISA) Skymaster, etc. The 18kts was a quote. Generaly I agree with you. Students shall jump in student conditions with student gear. I really like the Skymaster student canopy for the heavy students. Saw a 110kg student flare it at 15meters. Landing ok. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BPO 0 #7 August 30, 2004 Quote Sabres are passe' for students. Can you explain why sabres are no longer considered to be a good option for students? Just curious.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #8 August 30, 2004 Sabres are not desiged for students. Is it enough for you? Check PD pages for recommendations! http://www.performancedesigns.com/sabre.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #9 August 30, 2004 QuoteQuote Sabres are passe' for students. Can you explain why sabres are no longer considered to be a good option for students? Just curious.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Three reasons: First, Sabres are not big enough for all students. The largest Sabre I have ever packed was a 230. That might be okay for small students, but you need 260, 290 and maybe 330 for big students. The second problem is packing. Unless you pack neatly, original Sabres can open hard. Sure experienced jumpers can sew extra pockets on their sliders, pack neatly, etc. , but we cannot expect that level of care from junior packers, and all it takes is one hard opening to "turn off" a student. Finally, most manufacturers are now selling student-specific, ZP canopies (Aerodyne Solo, Flight Concepts ZP Manta, Icarus Student ZP-7, PD Navigator, etc.) that are much more forgiving than Sabres. Even PD recommends hanging students under Navigators. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BPO 0 #10 August 30, 2004 Thanks for the info Rob! At our dropzone our students jump with sabres ranging from 230 to 170 sqft. Maximum allowed weight is 220lbs, which hardly ever poses a problem. The sabres are not equipped with micro-lines but with really thick lines (don't know type) and I think the steering lines are a bit longer than they would usually be. I am sure Navigators can be more suitable for students. Thanks again for the useful info. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #11 August 30, 2004 You would put a 220 lb student (thats their body weight, right?) under a sabre 230 for a 1st jump? Thats about a 1.0 to 1.1 wingload considering the weight of the gear...Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BPO 0 #12 August 30, 2004 Jup. That's the maximum wingload for students. This is the way it's been done for about four years now at our DZ. Without many problems, I might add. The parachute will usually not stall, not even when flared at 50ft up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
didi_br 0 #13 September 1, 2004 Hey BPO, where do you jump? what is the wind's velocity in your dz? can you tell me more about the sabres? sizes, containers and reserves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BPO 0 #14 September 1, 2004 QuoteHey BPO, where do you jump? what is the wind's velocity in your dz? can you tell me more about the sabres? sizes, containers and reserves. Sure.. I jump in the Netherlands, Hoogeveen to be specific. The winds are pretty different from day to day. We have Sabres ranging in size from 170 to 230. The 170 has a max student weight of aprox. 145 lbs, where the 230 has a max student weight of 220lbs (all excluding weight of rig). The large sizes (230, 210 and prob. the 190) are equipped with Phantom26' round reserves. The smaller chutes (190 and 170) might have a smaller reservesize. The rigs that are used are the Telesis Student harnasses. They will fit a student of every (allowable) length/weight. However, these rigs are not freefly-friendly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #15 September 1, 2004 I assume the sabres have been bought when the navigator was not available (I know that for sure) I once jumped a sabre 170 intended to use for students after 15jumps. The steering lines were normal length and I could not stall the canopy (75kg/165lbs) This was in Hilversum (Netherlands) at the time the navigator was not available. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BPO 0 #16 September 1, 2004 Hi Ton, I assume you are right. We are using the Sabres for four (maybe five) years now. Don't know for how long the Navigator is around though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #17 September 4, 2004 I'm all for manta's. Those things saved my life once when i made a very low turn just out of AFF. I was so low that i came out of my turn and a second later i flared. if i had been on a sabre or anything else i'm pretty sure i'd have broken something.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
