TriGirl 319 #26 July 7, 2016 ryoder Hey, do you think the golf course charged her green fees? Not if she replaced her own divots. See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus Shut Up & Jump! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #27 July 7, 2016 TriGirl *** Hey, do you think the golf course charged her green fees? Not if she replaced her own divots. You'd think it would have been easier to just rent a cart.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #28 July 8, 2016 wolfriverjoeThat's a problem with electric flaps. They take time, and often take attention - In the Cessnas I've flown, if you only want partial flaps, you have to put the switch down, watch the gauge, then put it back to "off" when you get the setting you want. Maybe 15 seconds to extend them. We have a system that sounds very much like that in our V-tail Bonanza, but I've never seen one like that in a Cessna, granted I haven't flown too many types (182, 172, 150). The ones I've always seen are like the attached photo. I do like the Pipers, they're easy, never gotta worry about mixing up the gear switch and the flap switch (and landing a beautiful Bonanza with the gear up... but that was another pilot), and they are all the freaking same on the Piper aircraft that I've flown (Arrow, Cherokee, Lance and Seminole)"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #29 July 8, 2016 wolfriverjoe That's a problem with electric flaps. They take time, and often take attention - Yep, as a skydiver I'm very familiar with the mechanical flap mech. on the old Skylanes. Those electric flaps sound like a bit of a step backwards, don't they? Thanks for the fine points. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #30 July 8, 2016 theonlyski***That's a problem with electric flaps. They take time, and often take attention - In the Cessnas I've flown, if you only want partial flaps, you have to put the switch down, watch the gauge, then put it back to "off" when you get the setting you want. Maybe 15 seconds to extend them. We have a system that sounds very much like that in our V-tail Bonanza, but I've never seen one like that in a Cessna, granted I haven't flown too many types (182, 172, 150). The ones I've always seen are like the attached photo. I do like the Pipers, they're easy, never gotta worry about mixing up the gear switch and the flap switch (and landing a beautiful Bonanza with the gear up... but that was another pilot), and they are all the freaking same on the Piper aircraft that I've flown (Arrow, Cherokee, Lance and Seminole) What? I thought all you did was Ski.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #31 July 8, 2016 JohnMitchell *** That's a problem with electric flaps. They take time, and often take attention - Yep, as a skydiver I'm very familiar with the mechanical flap mech. on the old Skylanes. Those electric flaps sound like a bit of a step backwards, don't they? Thanks for the fine points. .They really suck when the dogged out 206 loses the electrical system and has to land on a short grass strip, loaded with jumpers and no flaps."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #32 July 8, 2016 theonlyski They really suck when the dogged out 206 loses the electrical system and has to land on a short grass strip, loaded with jumpers and no flaps. When I was working on adding SEL to my private ticket, I was taking dual instruction one day, and had just entered the pattern. I flipped the flap switch to get the first 10 degrees. Anticipating the need for pitch change...nothing happening. Twiddled the switch again. Nothing. WTF? Then I noticed the instructor...grinning as she twirled a fuse between her fingers."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 1,149 #33 July 8, 2016 muff528******AOPA full story: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/july/06/fearless-student-pilot-lands-safely-after-engine-failure He said an NTSB examination determined that a cracked intake valve lodged itself in the exhaust manifold and triggered a rapid set of events that led to the engine failure. ... She said she landed fine but “was coming in really fast. When I came in, I hit a hill and it launched me back in the air and then a wingtip contacted a tree and that spun me around.” When the Cessna 150 contacted the ground “it hit on the nose” and collapsed the front gear. ... When asked what she would change if she had to do it all over again, Lund said she would “probably put flaps in if I had time but I didn’t really have that much time. Great story. Just don't be getting any ideas, ""There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes.." a C140 isn't all that fast. OK, I'm not a pilot, but (depending on her speed at that point) I wonder if flaps might have made things worse when she was "launched" back into the air by the hill. I'm imagining something like flaring a canopy too high and then dropping straight down. (maybe an invalid comparison?) Most of my time is in a C-182 with manual flaps. Four notches with 10,20,30 and forty degrees of deflection. The first two settings produce more lift than drag and the second two more drag than lift. But the flaps are still producing lift at the 30 & 40 degree deflection settings. With power(65% or better) you can have a slower stall speed with 30-40 degree settings and without power 20 would be the best setting. At 400 feet AGL which is supposedly the altitude where the engine failed. You would have time to lower the nose, to maintain reasonable airspeed, identify a landing spot and shortly thereafter you would be on the ground. If she was really on the money she may have had time to check fuel on both tanks, mags both, power full, mixture full rich... oh oh on the ground. Don't get sidetracked when aviating. Four hundred isn't four thousand or fourteen thousand feet. Cessna electric flaps are slow. Five to six seconds per 10 degrees seems about right. When flying jumpers in the summer you get some great thermals. On occasion I would get into a strong thermal which would increase the climb rate from 400-600 FPM climb to 700-800 fpm. In order to stay in the core of the thermal I would drop two notches of flaps which would allow 60-65 indicated and 20-30 degree banking. I could stay in the lift for 3-4 minutes. I've also seen 1200' FPM with four jumpers. The change in pitch from power to without power can catch a novice by surprise.Pitch is decreased to maintain airspeed to preclude possible stall or reduced control authority. About 25 years ago I got a chance to fly a hang glider towed behind a boat.Like this one:https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/87571 Previously the hang gliders I'd flown had 8 - 10 to 1 glide ratios. These first generation hang gliders as pictured above have a glide ratio of about 3-4 to 1. Anyway I released the tow rope at about 600' above the water and pulled the nose down about 15 degrees. Nothing to much effect. So I pulled it in another 5 degrees and still no real control authority. So I yanked back on the control bar another ten degrees and low and behold its flying nicely. All in about five seconds. I'm thinking wow what a pig. Was still fun none the less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 1,149 #34 July 8, 2016 wolfriverjoe... Just from what I see in the pics, the plane is fixable. A bit of sheetmetal on the wings, new wingtips, new nose gear (maybe straighten out the firewall), new prop (fixed pitch - it is maybe fixable). I've seen worse put back into shape and flown again (yes, I flew them). Minus $4-5000 for resale value on a aircraft with damage history. Prop $2000 engine $7000 carb box 800 nose gear $2000 firewall 2000 engine mount 1000 both wings 8000 paint 7000 Its a 71 and probably books at 28-32K. Just M.O. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmarshall234 14 #35 July 8, 2016 >I'm not a pilot, but I used to judge their actions professionally. That's funny!! Yep, I can feel you guys up there judging. Sometimes, I even hear it too..>Real pilots, critique away. It looks to me like she did a great job. As for the flaps...landing on a golf course certainly qualifies as a "short field" landing. Flaps in that airplane would provide increased lift and a slower approach speed. The POH would call for full flaps for a short field landing. Having said that, every emergency is different and what matters is the outcome. I think she did great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GaryP 0 #36 July 8, 2016 Bet the instructor supervising shit his pants !"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it" . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 1,149 #37 July 8, 2016 rmarshall234 >I'm not a pilot, but I used to judge their actions professionally. That's funny!! Yep, I can feel you guys up there judging. Sometimes, I even hear it too..>Real pilots, critique away. It looks to me like she did a great job. As for the flaps...landing on a golf course certainly qualifies as a "short field" landing. Flaps in that airplane would provide increased lift and a slower approach speed. The POH would call for full flaps for a short field landing. Having said that, every emergency is different and what matters is the outcome. I think she did great. Agree on the great job. A golf course landing is a short field landing, par five fairways aside. I would concede. If you had perfect technique in the aircraft, forty flaps(no power) would allow you to really stick a landing. Given soft field, trees, power lines, etc. Full 40 degree flaps are really designed for power on landings. When the prop blast can act directly on the flaps alot of lift is created. Without power only airspeed is acting as lift and the increased drag at 30 and forty degrees bleeds off airspeed and energy.Energy that can be used for a more nuanced rotation on landing. Very high decent rates can develop with full flaps. Without power and 40 flaps the rotation has to be near perfect because the airspeed will bleed off quicker. This sets aside the issues of trim, 40 degrees produces high nose down pitching and normally requires substantial trim adjustment. If the trim wasn't adjusted and 40 degrees was just initiated from climbing flight. There would be an issue of how much elevator authority would be left to rotate with. Given the control yoke would be already quite far back. Trim, pitch is adjusted by changing the entire horizontal stabilizer's angle of attack. There are great videos on you-tube of the short field landing contests in Alaska. Super cubs at full power, full flaps, brakes locked, 15-20 and even 25 degree positive angle of attack landings. All designed to bring the aircraft to full stop in twenty to thirty feet. The record 13'. Thats if they don't nose over from the brakes being locked. This video shows a C-150 full flap short field landing. Its the first AC in the clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuE2cW8NMx8 Anyway, with 45 hours TT , 17 years old I wouldn't expect a Sullenberger result. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #38 July 8, 2016 rmarshall234 >I'm not a pilot, but I used to judge their actions professionally. That's funny!! Yep, I can feel you guys up there judging. Sometimes, I even hear it too.. We try to be subtle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #39 July 9, 2016 JohnMitchell ***>I'm not a pilot, but I used to judge their actions professionally. That's funny!! Yep, I can feel you guys up there judging. Sometimes, I even hear it too.. We try to be subtle. Even in the break room?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 58 #40 July 9, 2016 turtlespeed ******>I'm not a pilot, but I used to judge their actions professionally. That's funny!! Yep, I can feel you guys up there judging. Sometimes, I even hear it too.. We try to be subtle. Even in the break room?Do they even get breaks?lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #41 July 9, 2016 oldwomanc6 Do they even get breaks? Some guys made a career out of taking breaks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #42 July 9, 2016 JohnMitchell ***Do they even get breaks? Some guys made a career out of taking breaks. Do you still go out to the runway and let the jet exhaust blow you around?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #43 July 9, 2016 turtlespeed ******Do they even get breaks? Some guys made a career out of taking breaks. Do you still go out to the runway and let the jet exhaust blow you around? I don't think he is required to do that anymore since he no longer pushes tin."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #44 July 9, 2016 ryoder *********Do they even get breaks? Some guys made a career out of taking breaks. Do you still go out to the runway and let the jet exhaust blow you around? I don't think he is required to do that anymore since he no longer pushes tin.That's why I asked.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #45 July 10, 2016 I just put on my wing suit and stand behind the Twin Otter as it taxis out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 58 #46 July 10, 2016 JohnMitchell I just put on my wing suit and stand behind the Twin Otter as it taxis out. "Let's go fly a kite, up to the highest hight……." lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #47 July 10, 2016 oldwomanc6 ***I just put on my wing suit and stand behind the Twin Otter as it taxis out. "Let's go fly a kite, up to the highest hight……." Let's go fly a kite and send it soaring.....I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #48 July 10, 2016 turtlespeed ******I just put on my wing suit and stand behind the Twin Otter as it taxis out. "Let's go fly a kite, up to the highest hight……." Let's go fly a kite and send it soaring..... Right into a tree, Charlie Brown style."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #49 July 10, 2016 BillyVance *********I just put on my wing suit and stand behind the Twin Otter as it taxis out. "Let's go fly a kite, up to the highest hight……." Let's go fly a kite and send it soaring..... Right into a tree, Charlie Brown style. And just to go full circle - you mean 17 yo girl style.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #50 July 14, 2016 NTSB preliminary report: http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20160630X31108&key=1"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
