skymama 37 #1 February 18, 2011 I'm hearing rumors that someone hooked it in at Z-hills yesterday and has some injuries. Anyone know anything about this?She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdpml 0 #2 February 18, 2011 Yes they did almost hook it in. They are sore but ok. That's why it wasn't posted. Paul. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 137 #3 February 18, 2011 Quote...They are sore but ok. That's why it wasn't posted. But would the details/circumstances be useful to help others perhaps avoid "almost hooking it in" (or it's close cousin, "hooking it in")? It seems to me you can learn as much from close calls as you can fatalities. Perhaps even more, because the operator can tell you what they saw/did/felt/thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdpml 0 #4 February 18, 2011 Ok details A jumper with a intrest in swooping turned in much to low trying to swoop the pond. He missed and thankfully did not break anyone or anything. He shook himself up and got checked out after a friend took him to the hospital. Things to learn. DON'T try to swoop like the guys with thousands of them. Always have a out Always know when to say no. And add this to the already long list of identical posts in this forum. :-))) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spankee 0 #5 February 18, 2011 Seems crazy for a jumper with an 'interest in swooping' should be trying to surf the pond! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #6 February 18, 2011 Quote Seems crazy for a jumper with an 'interest in swooping' should be trying to surf the pond! yeah... I think it's the first time ever we have a report of some one over estimating his ability trying to go big...Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #7 February 18, 2011 Maybe this one haz mad skillz? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #8 February 18, 2011 I bet he could do it on his head too... Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #9 February 18, 2011 on a serious note, I would expect this thread to magically disappear. No real incident, the jumper is ok, and Paul summed up the lesson perfectly. Get swooping lessons people! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #10 February 18, 2011 Any details on experience, equipment, turn degrees and initiation height? If we are going to discuss this we should at least get some facts."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spankee 0 #11 February 18, 2011 Good point DocPop. Also could currency be an issue? If the hook turn had been more accurate he may have impacted the pond which would be better than the ground I guess? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdpml 0 #12 February 18, 2011 Very current, 100+ in the last three months, 1500+ total, came back to the sport after a lot of years break. Great guy, i consider him a freind, doing great at every other thing he has tried, wingsuits ect. Just a mistake and he learned from it. Would you guys like the estimated altitudes from the people who watched it ??? They seem to guess between 150 feet and 500 feet to start the turn, canopy on the conservitive side for his body size 135 sq with a body weight of about the same, and it was a square. This is a non event and we are using some airtime to discuss it. Hope this helps all the people who need to learn from the internet, I realy do. Thanks, Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyper 0 #13 February 18, 2011 Quote Maybe this one haz mad skillz? Mad skillz at Z-Hills Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #14 February 18, 2011 QuoteJust a mistake and he learned from it. Agreed, but there is a lesson for others to learn besides, 'Don't turn too low'. The lesson is that when you are learning to swoop, you concentrate on one variable at a time, and the first variable you need to master is your turn height. You should start off with an intended 'swoop area', not a specific target. Make sure there are outs in every direction when you choose this area so when you are trying to set up for your swoop, you are not trying to reach your turn altitude at a specific point, just a general area. Your focus can be on the altitude, not the location. As you get your turn hieght dialed in, you can start to use a smaller 'swoop area', so now you have a little more work to do in terms of the location of your turn as well as the height. Work the size of this 'swoop area' down to a point, and now you 'might' be ready for a pond, or a set of gates. The problem with a pond, set of gates, or any other target you want to swoop is that it takes your attention away from other things, in this case it was the turn altitude. In other cases it might be canopy traffic, in either case, it's bad. Swooping is hard, and it takes repetition to get good at it. No amount of anything besides actual swoops will get you there. Time in sport, hop n pops, high pulls, CRW, coaching, etc. are helpful, but not a replacement for jump numbers. Beyond that, swooping a pond or target of any kind is another layer of hard, on top of just swooping, and that takes, you guessed it, more jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdpml 0 #15 February 18, 2011 Dave, you have my 100 % agreement, and I was hoping that people would realize that a low experienced jumper who just hit the floor is NOT the right person to put up what he THINKS he did to help other people. There truly is no benifit to this . I am the first to post facts if something happens and will always do that, if every DZ posted each time a jumper landed hard this forum would have 10+ new posts every day and 20 at weekends. As far as traffic, if you swoop here, 5000 ft pass only. Be safe. Paul. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefalle 0 #16 February 19, 2011 whats swooping? I want to swoop. will you teach me how to swoop? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #17 February 19, 2011 The whole swoop thang Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdpml 0 #18 February 19, 2011 Quote whats swooping? I want to swoop. will you teach me how to swoop? Just study this forum and when you see the report of how they hurt themselves DO THE OPPOSITE and you will be fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jverley 1 #19 February 20, 2011 This is not an incident. Someone had a poor landing and was sore. This forum would have 200,000 posts if that was a criteria. Move along people. Nothing to see here.John Arizona Hiking Trails Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f94sbu 0 #20 February 20, 2011 QuoteThis is not an incident. Someone had a poor landing and was sore. This forum would have 200,000 posts if that was a criteria. Move along people. Nothing to see here. I cannot help to disagree with you here. An incident by definition is a happening where something did not go according to plan. Sometimes incidents have material damage, sometimes personal and sometimes both. And in some cases, there is no damage at all. If we stop taking every incident seriously, we will take away our chance of learning _before_ there is personal injury. In this case, I would agree with you that this happens over and over again, but I don't mind people posting stories like this every once in a while. It is true that there have been plenty of posts like this in the past, but in reality, how many newcomers do you think scan our forum multiple years backwards to read stories like these and learn from them? I am not saying that I want the forum to be filled with them, but when they do appear, I see nothing wrong making them a useful learning thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #21 February 20, 2011 I would agree with you. Just because this person escaped without a femur sticking through their skin, doesn't mean we can't learn from it. - Would it have been more relevant if it had resulted in a fracture or paralysis? - Are we to dictate a minimum level of injury before an incident is deemed worthy of discussion? In several recent threads about fatality statistics, the point has been made that we have little data about non-fatal incidents and we can capture some of that information here (within the general rules of the forum)."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #22 February 20, 2011 I can see both sides of this. To me, it depends on what is available to learn from the incident. This particular thread seems to boil down to "get the proper training and coaching" sort of thing. If every similar event got posted here, there could be a vast number of less pivotal threads to wade through. Maybe we could have a forum just for these such learning events, and/or the type of question that started this thread. If there was an important incident, it could be moved to Incidents for the rest of the discussion. But if there is a non-injury incident that has an important, possibly new, learning opportunity, sure, I can see posting it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #23 February 20, 2011 Quote Nothing to see here That's where you're wrong. If this had been a simple low turn, then yes, it would fall under the commonly known heading of 'don't make low turns'. However, this incident involved another layer, a layer which I would venture to say was the primary cause for the incident, that being target fixation. While I think everyone is aware that turning low is not a good thing, I'm not 100% sure that everyone realizes the hazzards of target fixation, and how to avoid them by learning to swoop first without a target, and then moving on to swooping with a higher degree of accuracy. If you already know that, or don't believe it be valid, or don't think it merits repeating, that's your opinion, and you are free to skip this thread all together. I have seen this issue bite many jumpers, and as such I feel that it bears repeating and is of value to those currently learning to swoop, and don't need you suggesting that I, or anyone else, 'move along'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #24 February 20, 2011 Quote But if there is a non-injury incident that has an important, possibly new, learning opportunity, sure, I can see posting it here. Why here rather than in Safety & Training? Isn't that what the other forum is set up for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f94sbu 0 #25 February 20, 2011 QuoteI have seen this issue bite many jumpers, and as such I feel that it bears repeating and is of value to those currently learning to swoop, and don't need you suggesting that I, or anyone else, 'move along'. I agree 100% with you. It seems that the biggest learning piece has been missed out by a bunch of people here: A swoop pond is not a safe place to start to swoop, a swoop pond is a playground for experienced canopy pilots! (And even we hurt ourselves there!) Hitting the water surface is undoubtedly more forgiving than hitting the grass, but becoming target fixated on a pond makes you much more prone to general screw-ups. And then it does not help that there was a pond just 5m away from where you went in. I have seen people hurt them selves pretty badly by bouncing in the water and then bounce out of the pond only to hit the rock hard edges of the pond. Lesson #1 when learning to swoop is "Find a large practice area where you can dial in your altitude and that gives you with plenty of bail outs." Throwing a pond in there is what you do at lesson #4 or #5. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
