Talon E/11 pack volume

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I need advice as to whether I may pack a Raven II into a Talon with a size E reserve tray. I've contacted Rigging Innovations but they haven't replied yet.

I am a BPA trainee rigger and I have been given a rig to repack. It is a Talon, DOM May 1990. It has been packed by other riggers many times before but this is the first time that I have been given it to pack. The canopies appear to be too small for the container.

The reserve container is size "E" and the main tray is size "11". The canopies currently in the Talon are a Raven II (f) reserve and a Sabre 150 main. There is a pad fitted to the main tray for it to be able to take a smaller canopy.

The pack volumes of the canopies are 419 cu.in. for the reserve and 413 cu.in for the main. The information I have on Talon pack volumes for this size Talon says that for the reserve, 460 is "soft", 490 is "ideal" and 515 is "firm". For the main these figures are 470, 510 and 550.

As you can see, the reserve is 41 cu.in. smaller than the "soft" volume, and the main is 57 cu.in smaller than "soft" (although there is a pad)

My question is: how soft is too soft? Are these limits (of 460 to 515 for the reserve) absolute limits, or is it allowable to pack the reserve when the canopy is even smaller, giving an "even softer" pack job?!

Thanks in advance,

Liz.

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[PhreeZone 20]

Is there a Cypres? Remember that adds to your pack volume too.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

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[councilman24 37]

If I got this right you have a rig to repack and you wonder if it "legal" in it's current cofiguration?

I can only give you an American answer. In this country riggers are allowed to determine the compatability of canopies and H/C's. (There is an exception that I won't go into on TSO C23d stuff.) One thing to keep in mind is that can easily be plus or minus 10% pack volume in individual canopies of the same model. In addition while PIA has issued a standardized method to measure canopy volume it varies with repeat, who's measuring, relative humidity etc. And I several manufacturers use their own variation. Measureing container volumes is even more subjective. It's really only done by packing canopies of "known" volume in to it. In addition calculated volumes can be come up with but it's a flexible system going from rectangular to round as you stuff it fuller.

Canopy suggestions and container and canopy volumes should be taken as "typical" or "suggestions". Each individual assembly has to be judged on it's own compatability. I've seen many systems over the years that theoretically were compatable but really weren't. Usually somebody trying to put the biggest reserve in the smallest container. "The catalog says they should fit," whines the jumper. But when they get a plus 10% reserve and a low end on container and they were pushing the limit it sometimes doesn't go.

As for smaller, my guess is that it is probably ok. Other things that come into are the type of lines, Dacron or Spectra. I've only ever refused to pack one rig because the reserve was too small. A Tempo 170 in a Javelin J-5. The safety stow didn't have any tension on it the bag was so empty. Oh, and a similar situation on a new rig that was built the wrong size.

I DON'T know the BPA regs. The French would like to have a no exceptions compatability chart and had trouble accepting the range of sizes identical models can have.

So in this country you "may" pack it if you deem it compatable. In the U.K. you'll have to get advice on your regs. Hopefully they don't blindly mandate following the suggested compatabilities.

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Terry Urban
D-8631
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[riggerrob 643]

Liz,
... trying to remember from when I worked at Rigging Innovations.
Talon E 11 is big enough to be a student rig.
E-sized reserve container is designed for a Raven 3.
I cannot remember if E or F is designed for Raven 4 ???? We should look at Talon/Telesis packing manual.
Installing a smaller reserve canopy is rarely a life-threatening issue, provided you can still maintain enough tension on the loop/ripcord to prevent it from falling out. Fortunately, the Talon reserve pilotchute spring exerts plenty of pressure on the loop, you just have to shorten the loop until you get a ripcord pull force in the 'teens (13 to 19 pounds).

Mis-matching main canopies is more of a hassle with Talons because the original loop is so short. I will have to consult R.I.'s chart, but I vaguely remember size-11 main container was designed for canopies about double the size of your Sabre 150.
Hee!
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Adding a pillow helps, but then it is still difficult to keep pin pull forces in the 'teens.
In other words, when you pull on the main bridle, you should need 13 to 19 pounds to release the main pin.

Liz,
It sounds like they are messing with you, sort of like a BPA official packing test.
Hee!
Hee!
While you are consulting the Talon manual, take a look at the list of R.I. service bulletins (www.rigginginnovations.com). For example, if the reserve pilotchute spring is not painted red or black, then refuse to repack the reserve. Most of the other service bulletins are of lesser importance (i.e. bartacks in the corners of the reserve container).
For instance, if the rig still has its original ripcord, you can safely ignore last year's service bulletin affecting Capewell-supplied ripcord pins.

[smiler 0]

Thanks everyone!

I got a reply from Rigging Innovations today, it didn't say either that I could or couldn't pack it, it just advised on how to tell if it was too small.

It does have a Cypres and it has Spectra lines.

To be honest, I think it'll be fine. I'll pack it tomorrow and see what I think.

By the way, the system over here is different: before becoming a trainee rigger, you have to first be an Advanced Packer (qualified to pack reserves), which I am. You can then become a Basic Rigger (trainee) and start machining stuff, pretty much the equivalent of your minor/major repair stuff. When you get good at that you can be examined and become a Parachute Rigger, qualified to fix anything that's not last line of defence (I'm over-simplifying here). Beyond that is Advanced Rigger, who can fix anything including harness work and reserve canppy patching. We also have Rigger Examiner, same as you guys.

As an Advanced Packer I've done a few hundred reserve pack jobs and this one is a paying customer, so if it is a test then it's an elaborate one!

By the way, as you mentioned it: we have another rig in without the bartacks in the corner, does anyone have the technical instructions for PMP 1235 so we can fix it? RI e mailed back saying it's an old bulletin, that most rigs were sent back to them at the time and that all they have on file is notes on paper which they can't send electronically.

Thanks again

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[riggerrob 643]

re PMP 1235, all I have is a paper copy.
Do you have a FAX machine?