unnecessary roughness by JM

[thrillstalker 0]

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Is this Pete?

he has been good lately.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[loveslavender 0]

Well I don't feel like a child nor do I feel like I'm entitled (to a certain degree) but I have work to do and practicing more. Again this image thing too.??? I don't have an image.. I am but a mere student. And even when I do get my license... it will not be much at all compared to some of you. You all are the ones with the images. The ones with all of the experience.

[DSE 5]

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Again this image thing too.??? I don't have an image.. I am but a mere student. .

You do have an image, and you're planting it more firmly in people's minds with each post.
Both sides of the discussion could step back and remember how crazy it is to be a student, how difficult it is to know WTF is happening, and overreactions are common (OMG I coulda died on a 180 linetwist). And then they get over it.
Flip side, skydive training is NOT a service-oriented game. We have short time in the aircraft, a lollygagging student puts others at risk, a student that watches too much YouTube or spends too much time on DZ.com before they are off student status is a serious pain in the ass. A student who goes online and bitches about an instructional process they know nothing about paints an image that isn't exactly flattering.

[kkeenan 14]

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...who wants to be friends with people that are saying things like some of you are? Like "get the fuck over yourself" etc. and problem child, hit the road.. and the list goes on. LOL

Please believe me. No one who is saying these things WANTS to be your friend. We (or at least I am) think that you are acting like an extreme pain in the ass in a DZ training situation. People who train jumpers see this type come along now and then, and they dread it. Their livelihood relies on safely training folks and teaching them to perform under pressure. You have demonstrated that you cave under the most mild of conditions, and require extreme care and tenderness that is all but impossible unless you hire your own personal instructor. And even in that case, you will probably lose the first few due to frustration with your shit.

Is that plain enough for you ?

I don't train students, so I don't care if you stay in the sport or not. I'm just thinking of many friends who are hard-working instructors, who I would not like to see saddled with you as a student.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[topdocker 0]

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...who wants to be friends with people that are saying things like some of you are? Like "get the fuck over yourself" etc. and problem child, hit the road.. and the list goes on. LOL

Please believe me. No one who is saying these things WANTS to be your friend. We (or at least I am) think that you are acting like an extreme pain in the ass in a DZ training situation. People who train jumpers see this type come along now and then, and they dread it. Their livelihood relies on safely training folks and teaching them to perform under pressure. You have demonstrated that you cave under the most mild of conditions, and require extreme care and tenderness that is all but impossible unless you hire your own personal instructor. And even in that case, you will probably lose the first few due to frustration with your shit.

Is that plain enough for you ?

I don't train students, so I don't care if you stay in the sport or not. I'm just thinking of many friends who are hard-working instructors, who I would not like to see saddled with you as a student.

Sadly, Kevin is sugar-coating it!

Loves, how do you know you didn't have a piece of equipment snagged on the plane, a pilot chute half out and your Instructor was trying to relocate it when you suddenly moved, maybe when you jumped up to switch seats you slammed you Instructor against the top blukhead? You do not even know what you don't know. Your vision is small and your world is smaller, that is what students do, but maybe your Instructor had a larger view than you and was trying to keep you safe.

You don't know, you haven't discussed it with your Instructor, you just ran off and found a kindler, gentler one.

And complained about your treatment publicly.

And wondered why so many people here think you might be the problem.

And probably still don't have a clue.

And the advice below is really for you!

top

Jump more, post less!

[rehmwa 2]

You are clearly a part of the problem post dive.

However, if you can get the JM to post his side here, I suspect we can figure out on our own if he's just a firm hand or actually an asshole.

I know JM's like you describe, but most of them are just doing as good a job as they can. Can't really tell anything about him without another viewpoint of the jump, just about you at this point.

Coming here to discuss it really isn't classy at all. Be better than that - learn what you can and enjoy the sport.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Muffie 0]

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest and was going to stay out of it and just observe, but just wanted to add another thought.

I think one of the issues here is not trusting the AFFI and his experience which I think is essential. I trusted (and still trust) my AFFI implicitly. Before I started my AFF course I knew that he had been at this for 25+ years, had a boatload of jumps and experience, and knew far more about this sport than I will probably ever know. So, if he grabbed me with two hands and threw me halfway across the plane, I'd likely be shocked but I'd know that he had a damned good reason for it and would tell me what it was when we were safe on the ground.

I'd rather have a competent asshole for an AFFI than a cute, friendly AFFI who doesn't know all the shit that can go wrong or is too busy trying to be nice to help me learn the skills I need to survive.

This sport can and has killed people at every level of experience. To the OP: Be glad the JM cared enough to work with you on what he perceived as an issue. If you get to 100 jumps and you react to people who try to help you like you've been doing here, they're just going to walk away and wait for you to bounce. Harsh but true.

[billvon 2,990]

>I swear to God...the first time I saw the username, I read LovesSlander. The posts
>seem to be focused on that.

Me too. Then Loveslave. It took a minute to parse it.

[jonathan.newman 1]

I've seen AFF Instructors get rough 3 times. The first, a student didn't have his foot all the way forward as he stood in the door. The inside instructor started kicking the student's foot hard to get him to slide his foot forward. As the outside instructor, I didn't feel he had to be this rough, and I asked him about it on the ground.

The second time, was with an instructor who was having an off-day, with a student who was not responding to the shake signal to relax and arch. He got thumped on the bottom of his pack about three times before he realized that we instructors were asking him to arch. Was it physically rough? Yes. Was it the appropriate "hand signal"? Yes.

The third time was in freefall again, where a student was not responding to the clenched fist hand signal, and was fighting the wrist tug signal, for about three times each. His other instructor thumped him on the helmet twice, and while he was stunned, grabbed his wrist and put it on his pilot chute handle. Again, rough, but effective.

Your situation might have been the same, or might have been different.

Did you drop the rig on the grass in the landing area? That's a no-no to ensure it can be safely repacked for the next student.

Are different instructors giving you different procedures for the in-aircraft part and the exit count? That's a no-no because you want to keep consistency and not confuse the student.

Don't worry about changing dropzones. As long as you are current (30 days or less) you should be able to pick up where you left off. Now, if one DZ uses "level 1 Level 2, etc" and another uses Category A, B, etc, there may be different training programs. If you are not current, you can expect to be asked to demonstrate a few skills before you progress.

Please don't feel that you failed a jump. There are certain goals that MUST be met to complete a level. It sometimes takes more than one jump to finish them all. I've had a student take 5 jumps to finish the requirements for 2 levels.

As for instructors, you might learn better from a certain instructor's teaching style, or vice versa. Instructors are supposed to know how to teach different styles of students. It also helps to have a couple successful dirt dives before you board the plane. This will help all people involved in the jump get the same understanding of what should happen. I'd take it there is some misunderstanding on your last jump.

Again on DZs, if one DZ had 8 instructors, and another has 2, you can expect a vastly different "vibe" at each one.

Attitude is very important. If you stress, you don't learn. If your instructor is stressed, he won't be the best teacher.

Welcome to the sky. I hope you love every jump from here out!

[david3 0]

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Well I don't feel like a child nor do I feel like I'm entitled (to a certain degree) but I have work to do and practicing more. Again this image thing too.??? I don't have an image.. I am but a mere student. And even when I do get my license... it will not be much at all compared to some of you. You all are the ones with the images. The ones with all of the experience.

I’m afraid you are going to have to post your photo so I can decide if I am on your side or the jumpmasters.

[ridestrong 1]

When I read your OP I thought, 'yeah, sounds like that JM was out of line.' and nothing more. You will find that people here on DZ.com will find a way of making you look like the bad guy and love to gang up on people.

That being said... minus the personal attacks that some have thrown at you I think most of the comments you've received are correct. You probably should have went to the JM first to discuss the matter and up the ladder if that failed.

My advice, stop feeding the fire in this post. Create a new profile (with a cute pic of yourself) and the same people who are now attacking you will be vying for your attention.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[jtiflyer 0]

just for my own curiosity, what kind of plane did you do your level 1 out of?

[Trafficdiver 8]

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Well I don't feel like a child nor do I feel like I'm entitled (to a certain degree) but I have work to do and practicing more. Again this image thing too.??? I don't have an image.. I am but a mere student. And even when I do get my license... it will not be much at all compared to some of you. You all are the ones with the images. The ones with all of the experience.

You are a troll.

I may not be much of a skydiver, but I am a stupid internet forum god.

[ridestrong 1]

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just for my own curiosity, what kind of plane did you do your level 1 out of?

ME????

that was prob for the OP... but without getting off the couch and checking my log book I'm pretty sure my level 1 was out of an Otter.

I remember getting up off the bench and running up and down the plane trying to take my clothes off while yelling, "Help me Jesus! Help me Jewish God! Help me Allah! Help me Tom Cruise!"

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[labrys 0]

Owned by Remi #?

[loveslavender 0]

Well a lot of people have one point that does really make sense. I want to go back and talk to him. I actually want to repeat the level with him until I pass it and only go the DZ closer because it's closer.

Thats the ideal...But that... I guess depends on wether or not he is not too pissed at me because I want to tell him that the only I ask is for a clearer plan before we go up and I want to talk to him about what I "felt" was way too much roughness at that time and I am sure it was a safety issue as from what I read I am not supposed to make any movements on the plane unless told to do so". I can see from a lot of the responses here what may get from him.

I never wanted to hurt the guy's career and there are people on here inquiring where I am at like the skydiving FBI who I did not tell but I can't delete this stupid profile and I'm not going to leave a guy in a bad way like that. And I have a feeling he will be exactly as some of the ones on here but I can only try. I would rather have myself be completely dumb to him and everyone at that DZ and deal with it.

I don't think I'm putting myself in harm's way or anything..i really don't think there was anything personal about it, idk. And he is a very experienced instructor so idk I will see..I am going to tell him what I think. But I already told the DZO so all 3 of us will probably have to talk. It's gonna be very uncomfortable. And whoever said posting on here is keeping a fire going is right.

[jtiflyer 0]

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just for my own curiosity, what kind of plane did you do your level 1 out of?

ME????

that was prob for the OP... but without getting off the couch and checking my log book I'm pretty sure my level 1 was out of an Otter.

I remember getting up off the bench and running up and down the plane trying to take my clothes off while yelling, "Help me Jesus! Help me Jewish God! Help me Allah! Help me Tom Cruise!"

yeah sorry that was directed at the OP

[jtiflyer 0]

[reply But that... I guess depends on wether or not he is not too pissed at me...

[Skyper 0]

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My advice, stop feeding the fire in this post. Create a new profile (with a cute pic of yourself) and the same people who are now attacking you will be vying for your attention.

Oh really? What is your original nick?

[riggerrob 643]

"

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... On L3, one of the JM's ... the type that believes making you feel stupid is the trick and so he criticized me on the ground before the jump a lot.. a little on the plane and then tons on the ground again... "

.......................................................................

He sounds like the sort of military-surplus instructor who believes he needs to intimidate students before he can cram any new material into their thick skulls.

He reminds me of a retired army sergeant major who told me that "First you have to crush the young man arrogance ..."
Since I don't learn well in that environment ... is it any wonder that I am ex-military and avoid using those teaching tactics with most students?

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[riggerrob 643]

"

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... In the airplane he was behind me as JM#2. Jm#1 moved to the closer bench (we were the last ones) and I started moving to the other bench just like on L#2.. JM#2 started pushing and shoving me back to the first bench.. he didn't just motion or move me (or tell me).. he shoved and pushed me over and over even though I got the message already he was still pushing my legs as if idk what his trip was.. ....

"

......................................................................

Sounds like "unecessarry roughness" to me.

If the inside instructor had been doing his job properly, he would already have a firm grip on your leg strap (when the door is open) and would only have needed to "apply pressure" to keep you on the bench, until he was ready to move towards the door.

Sounds like they need a local AFF Standardization Meeting to ensure that all the instructors - at that school - are teaching off the same lesson plan.

[ridestrong 1]

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My advice, stop feeding the fire in this post. Create a new profile (with a cute pic of yourself) and the same people who are now attacking you will be vying for your attention.

Oh really? What is your original nick?

Are you saying you think my profile pic is cute?

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[lopullterri 0]

I agree with Riggerob (This was not good method and they basically need a refresher at that DZ)...and Ridestrong (To deal with the harda$$es, my words, create a new profile for any further posts.) Leave this thread to die out.

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[rehmwa 2]

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If the inside instructor had been doing his job properly, he would already have a firm grip on your leg strap (when the door is open) and would only have needed to "apply pressure" to keep you on the bench, until he was ready to move towards the door.

now this is true - if a student is moving around before the instructors are ready. Having that grip already on the legstrap (the yoke is good leverage too) - only requires a little pressure (and a comment "wait just a second and relax - almost ready for the fun") to just hold the student in that sitting position until you are both ready. If they got up and you wanted them to stay sitting, you are already too late.

Control the student is always better and more subtle than "recover the student"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyper 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9XcwvnzbO8