Malyasian Flight missing - MH370

[ryoder 1,590]

SoCalJumper

***

Yeah....because if it's malfunctioning or otherwise causing a problem, ya sure wouldn't want anybody to be able to shut it down mid-flight.

Simmer down cupcake. I was referring to a separate system of tracking a $275 million dollar aircraft not connected to flight avionics or controls.

And assuming that system is electrical, the PIC needs to be able to shut it off if it shorts out.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ryoder 1,590]

airtwardo

AirBus tried that 'foolproof' thing with the autopilot, remember?
- AC got stuck in a holding pattern over London and they had to call the factory to figure out how to shut it off & land.

"Land at Heathrow, Hal."

"I'm sorry Dave, but I can't do that."

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[airtwardo 7]

SoCalJumper

***

Yeah....because if it's malfunctioning or otherwise causing a problem, ya sure wouldn't want anybody to be able to shut it down mid-flight.

Simmer down cupcake. I was referring to a separate system of tracking a $275 million dollar aircraft not connected to flight avionics or controls.


I'm all ears Skippy ~ tell me how retrofitting every commercial aircraft in the world with a secret squirrel GPS tracker will cost effectively prevent this inexcusable rash of disappearing jets that's been going on these past 40 - 50 years?

You DO understand that a reporting system is already incorporated into the design, but that airline chose NOT to buy the option...or the one that allows the airline to listen in real-time to what's going on in the cockpit...(not a favorite with most pilots)

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[wmw999 2,439]

It's very, very difficult and expensive to figure out every single possible code path and test it. Some of those code paths end up being the ones that turn into weird scenarios like the one Twardo described.

Sometimes "possible code path" can be expanded unwittingly with a code change; designing them out helps, but code changes. It's what code does best For me, safety-critical systems are best when they're simpler, because then there are fewer possibilities.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[quade 4]

A non-horrible idea would be to (moving forward) include lat/long in the engine reporting pings to the satellites whether or not the company that owns the aircraft subscribes to the full monitoring service.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airtwardo 7]

quade

A non-horrible idea would be to (moving forward) include lat/long in the engine reporting pings to the satellites whether or not the company that owns the aircraft subscribes to the full monitoring service.

IIRC even the engine reporting isn't a 'standard option', it's the most recommended because it's extremely cost effective regarding ROI on maintenance issues.

I think many people would be rather unpleasantly surprised at the number of obvious overall safety related 'options' some of the majors forego ordering due to the cost...

There is considerable re-training going on concerning a recent merger of two well known majors - the drivers from the bigger company were flying a 'Chevy Biscayne' & don't know how to use the 'Caprice' options all the smaller airline's equipment has.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[quade 4]

airtwardo

IIRC even the engine reporting isn't a 'standard option', it's the most recommended because it's extremely cost effective regarding ROI on maintenance issues.

Which was the case here; the airline didn't opt into the program but Rolls included the hardware anyway which is where the satellite pings came from that was the clue to the search radius.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airtwardo 7]

quade

***IIRC even the engine reporting isn't a 'standard option', it's the most recommended because it's extremely cost effective regarding ROI on maintenance issues.

Which was the case here; the airline didn't opt into the program but Rolls included the hardware anyway which is where the satellite pings came from that was the clue to the search radius.

The spinners weren't G.E.?

Well HELL...there's yer problem right there!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[quade 4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MH370#Aircraft

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[normiss 798]

Thanks Wendy,
You just took me back to the development work on the Aegis program and TREP/AEGIS in New Jersey.
I loved inserting random faults for the software developers to code for. They kept making the challenge more difficult as the code improved.
FUN work!

[Amazon 7]

grue

***Lots of breaking news out of Australia. "Credible information" of possible objects in the south Indian Ocean about 1500 miles off Perth. The statement came from the Prime Minister. They're referencing satellite images of 2 possible "objects".

Fingers crossed.

To be fair, nothing out of Tony Abbott's mouth is really credible, he's basically the GWB or Obama of the southern hemisphere.

That said, I'm biased because part of me never wants the plane to be found so we can have a good mystery to talk about for decades.

Put it next to the DBCOOPER thread

[SoCalJumper 0]

airtwardo

IIRC even the engine reporting isn't a 'standard option', it's the most recommended because it's extremely cost effective regarding ROI on maintenance issues.

I think many people would be rather unpleasantly surprised at the number of obvious overall safety related 'options' some of the majors forego ordering due to the cost...

I obviously am and wanted to point to the incredible high price of the aircraft, but also more importantly in my view are the hundreds of lives involved.... to not know where a modern Boeing passenger jet is and what happened to it full of passengers and crew.

[airtwardo 7]

SoCalJumper

***

IIRC even the engine reporting isn't a 'standard option', it's the most recommended because it's extremely cost effective regarding ROI on maintenance issues.

I think many people would be rather unpleasantly surprised at the number of obvious overall safety related 'options' some of the majors forego ordering due to the cost...

I obviously am and wanted to point to the incredible high price of the aircraft, but also more importantly in my view are the hundreds of lives involved.... to not know where a modern Boeing passenger jet is and what happened to it full of passengers and crew.


- And again, considering the overwhelming number of times that happens, I certainly can see your point.

Listen - It's always easy to armchair quarterback dozens of things that 'might' have made this a non-event. As was done ad nauseum following 9-11.

Since there is as of yet, no definitive cause - might be a bit early to be offering up solutions.

I have some experience in both the aerospace industry in regard to manufacturing hardware for airliners...
( I worked extensively not only on the triple 7 engine components - but also on the fabrication of the machines & tooling required to make those huge things - also on the testing to failure of some initial working prototypes)

...as well as a pretty good idea on how things run at a major airline being married to a senior capt flying widebodies internationally for the last 25 years.

Sure, an additional 40 - 50k to design in, wire up, test & certify for compatibility 'another' device offering quadruple redundancy to what's already there, may seem like a no-brainer....2U
Until you step back and look at the big picture.

Some of these majors order 50 or more aircraft on a contract...IF you can save enough money by getting the cheaper carpet & less than premium package for radios & avionics to buy an additional aircraft - it makes the decision a bit more difficult.

Do you have any idea how long the DC10/MD11 went without redesigning and implementing a 'certain fix' that would have made them somewhat safer? The equation in those matters centers around $...if it's projected to cost more to fix a maybe than it does to pay off the survivors of a couple of crashes...guess what?

Remember the problems a few years back with 737's - "we'll just fix 'em on a per unit basis the next time they happen to come in for a tear down" - Sure don't wanna shut down a worldwide fleet just to 'maybe' save a few hundred people.

If the margins are so close these days that they're charging per checked bag and 3 people are sharing a can of Coke -

- getting your panties all in a twist because in your opinion a one time anomaly event 'maybe/maybe not' be avoided by adding more bell$ & whistle$...is IMHO just kinda silly.

But then again, what do I know.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 2,989]

>I obviously am and wanted to point to the incredible high price of the aircraft, but
>also more importantly in my view are the hundreds of lives involved.... to not
>know where a modern Boeing passenger jet is and what happened to it full of
>passengers and crew.

Can you point to a single incident in the past 10 years where knowing where an aircraft was (say several hours after it was known to have gone missing) would have saved the aircraft or any of the passengers?

It would be nice to know where this plane is. But that's not the same as saving aircraft or passengers.

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

So what does a family survivor get as a pay off after a crash? Is it a lump settlement divided by x number of passengers? Or do they do a valuation of each person based on employment, age, etc.?

Always be kinder than you feel.

[quade 4]

LuckyMcSwervy

So what does a family survivor get as a pay off after a crash? Is it a lump settlement divided by x number of passengers? Or do they do a valuation of each person based on employment, age, etc.?

I think that's going to vary wildly depending on the country involved and its inherent atmosphere of lawsuits and what is considered "fair" by a particular culture.

Applying US/Euro standards to a Malyasia/China issue is probably apples and oranges.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

quade

***So what does a family survivor get as a pay off after a crash? Is it a lump settlement divided by x number of passengers? Or do they do a valuation of each person based on employment, age, etc.?

I think that's going to vary wildly depending on the country involved and its inherent atmosphere of lawsuits and what is considered "fair" by a particular culture.

Applying US/Euro standards to a Malyasia/China issue is probably apples and oranges.

Aha. I never even thought of that with this one. Thanks.

Always be kinder than you feel.

[airtwardo 7]

LuckyMcSwervy

******So what does a family survivor get as a pay off after a crash? Is it a lump settlement divided by x number of passengers? Or do they do a valuation of each person based on employment, age, etc.?

I think that's going to vary wildly depending on the country involved and its inherent atmosphere of lawsuits and what is considered "fair" by a particular culture.

Applying US/Euro standards to a Malyasia/China issue is probably apples and oranges.

Aha. I never even thought of that with this one. Thanks.

Also ~ age, income, # of dependants...if ya ride a scooter or a Harley.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

airtwardo

*********So what does a family survivor get as a pay off after a crash? Is it a lump settlement divided by x number of passengers? Or do they do a valuation of each person based on employment, age, etc.?

I think that's going to vary wildly depending on the country involved and its inherent atmosphere of lawsuits and what is considered "fair" by a particular culture.

Applying US/Euro standards to a Malyasia/China issue is probably apples and oranges.

Aha. I never even thought of that with this one. Thanks.

Also ~ age, income, # of dependants...if ya ride a scooter or a Harley.

Looking at it that way I'm worth about $13.50. And that's before the attorneys take their cut.

Always be kinder than you feel.

[airtwardo 7]

LuckyMcSwervy

************So what does a family survivor get as a pay off after a crash? Is it a lump settlement divided by x number of passengers? Or do they do a valuation of each person based on employment, age, etc.?

I think that's going to vary wildly depending on the country involved and its inherent atmosphere of lawsuits and what is considered "fair" by a particular culture.

Applying US/Euro standards to a Malyasia/China issue is probably apples and oranges.

Aha. I never even thought of that with this one. Thanks.

Also ~ age, income, # of dependants...if ya ride a scooter or a Harley.

Looking at it that way I'm worth about $13.50. And that's before the attorneys take their cut.

Geeze...cheaper to buy than rent!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

airtwardo

***************So what does a family survivor get as a pay off after a crash? Is it a lump settlement divided by x number of passengers? Or do they do a valuation of each person based on employment, age, etc.?

I think that's going to vary wildly depending on the country involved and its inherent atmosphere of lawsuits and what is considered "fair" by a particular culture.

Applying US/Euro standards to a Malyasia/China issue is probably apples and oranges.

Aha. I never even thought of that with this one. Thanks.

Also ~ age, income, # of dependants...if ya ride a scooter or a Harley.

Looking at it that way I'm worth about $13.50. And that's before the attorneys take their cut.

Geeze...cheaper to buy than rent!

Always be kinder than you feel.

[turtlespeed 219]

LuckyMcSwervy

******************So what does a family survivor get as a pay off after a crash? Is it a lump settlement divided by x number of passengers? Or do they do a valuation of each person based on employment, age, etc.?

I think that's going to vary wildly depending on the country involved and its inherent atmosphere of lawsuits and what is considered "fair" by a particular culture.

Applying US/Euro standards to a Malyasia/China issue is probably apples and oranges.

Aha. I never even thought of that with this one. Thanks.

Also ~ age, income, # of dependants...if ya ride a scooter or a Harley.

Looking at it that way I'm worth about $13.50. And that's before the attorneys take their cut.

Geeze...cheaper to buy than rent!



Yeah but renters get the maintenance for free. You have NO IDEA what his maintenance costs are.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 798]

Typical Jersey girl.

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

normiss

Typical Jersey girl.

Always be kinder than you feel.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

LuckyMcSwervy

So what does a family survivor get as a pay off after a crash? Is it a lump settlement divided by x number of passengers? Or do they do a valuation of each person based on employment, age, etc.?

Bigger issue is that life insurance doesn't pay out on "missing". At least not until after a decade or so has passed.