Burr on main closing pin cuts through bridle.

[Deuce 1]

Another post in incidents relates how a burr on a main closing pin cut through the bridle, resulting in a baglock/pilot chute in tow.

This really is bugging me, and both in that thread and in PM's I've been told I'm over reacting.

In that thread it's clear that launching the reserve into the pilot chute could have resulted in a fatality.

Precisely because it could have resulted in a fatality, I don't see how we can be over diligent in our response to insure it doesn't happen again.

I am aware that I have a lot of jumps in a short period of time, and that puts me at somewhat of a disadvantage regarding history in the sport. How often does this happen? Why is it not a big deal?

[mjosparky 4]

JP,

It was a bigger problem with some of the early curved pin, they were made of mild steel and plated. The plating would start to flake and the sharp edges of the plating would cause problems.

The newer pins are made of SS resulting in a better overall finnish. Having said that, ALWAYS look your gear over for any sign of wear. The method I use is, after the last jump of the weekend, I do not pack. I take it home, lay it out and go over it very carefully.

As you know, this is an unforgiving activity and you must watch for the Grim Reaper.

Sparky

PS- It is a big deal, if the pin comes off of your bridle, you bet it is a big deal.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Deuce 1]

Yeah, Mike, I know.

In this case we're talking about a rig with less than a hundred jumps on it that is about a year and a half old, if I remember correctly.

First off, I'm wondering how a stainless steel pin can get burred after the fact, if it's made of a decent alloy. If a sewing machine needle hit it during manufacture, something would probably have broke, and it would definitely have made a noise.

To put a ding in it after manufacture, it would have taken a hit with something pretty heavy and sharp which would probably have damaged the rig or bridle at the same time.

Simply dragging it across the DZ would not have burred it enough to have it saw through the bridle in 100 jumps. The only time that bridle is firmly pulled against the pin is during opening, and that is momentary.

I'm getting a lot of "hey, shit happens" and "every jumper is responsible for their gear"

Yes and yes.

Anybody else know a case of modern gear suffering this kind of malfunction?

[sundevil777 102]

I think you are right.

I think there should be a widely distributed 'airworthiness advisory' kind of notice distributed by PIA or USPA or ?.

It could list the numerous issues that we have dealt with over many years, just in an advisory role, no enforcement powers.

It could serve to get most jumpers gear checked for this condition. We are much more likely to get a problem identified and fixed without the need to wait for post-incident analysis to confirm how isolated the problem actually is.

Maybe this kind of thing is already in existence, but it doesn't seem to get much notice. I think every DZ should have their riggers/S&TA going around to check all pins on their DZ for the same condition. Not mandatory like the reserve pin concern, but if DZs make it 'mandatory' to check it, we will quickly have a pretty good idea of the scope of the problem. The inspection is non-invasive, can check it packed or unpacked.

There might be only one such pin that was produced/damaged. Maybe there are hundreds.


How about this:

Those who care about this issue report the results of checks at their DZ. Report back with approx how many checked/how many failed. If we find that thousands of rigs (especially new ones) have no problem, then good news.

I think the guys sewing them together should at least be on notice for this concern.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[RTB 0]

Hi, I have actually seen this type of burr almost wear through the tape. But the owner himself saw it and pointed it out to me asking what to do. It was fixed before it wore through the tape.
The reason this could happen is because the pins are punched out from a sheet metal, (thats the way it looks to me at least.) Then they are polished to take away any sharp edges. This pin had a burr left in the opening.
The important part is that you need to look at your equipment, not difficult in this case since you do hold the pin in your hand every time you close the rig.

[mouth 0]

I did see a few threads before and took it to a rigger who inspected and fixed the problem. I didn't see any more signs of wear until the mal happened.

It is up to each person to check their stuff I agree and I did give the pin a visual when I seated it before that jump. I saw nothing out of the ordinary but I didn't turn the loop inside out or anything like that checking. I assumed (my mistake) that just looking at the pin and the attachment for threads was good enough... Guess it is a lesson learned.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[PhreeZone 20]

There are lots of other issues that can lead to the same end result. If the stitching holding the loop to the bridle comes undone then its the same end result. If the stitching holding the apex tapes comes undone then the end result of a PC that is basically uncollapsed will result. Stitching holding the Pilot chute on the bridle is stressed on every jump and if it fails could leave an uncollapsed PC in tow. I've seen people forget and leave pull up cords in their rig too and the same end result as this could have happened on those jumps.

I think a frayed reserve closing loop is way more dangerous then this, but how many people inspect their loops between repacks? Not enough.

Every part of a rig is critical to its operation. Every part needs to be monitored for wear and if any is noticed the part needs repaired or replaced. Main systems tend to be ignored in the reserve repack cycle since the rigger is not usually inspecting that also.

If you want to look at your systems and talk to your friends thats a great idea.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[masterrig 1]

When I recieve a 'complete' parachute system into my shop, I go ahead and go through the main system, also. I've got it right there... why not. I advise the owner of what I do and why, so they aren't 'shocked' when they recieve my bill. I've found 'severe' fraying of main bridles at the pilot-chute end as well as at the D-bag end. Partial bar-tacks where the closing pin is attached to the bridle, damaged grommets on D-bags, torn ribs in the main, as well as small tears, etc. It's my job. Just a thought.

Chck

[PhreeZone 20]

Do you do as complete of an inspection on the main as you do on the reserve? A lot of the times I've done a reserve inspection the main is not with the container. Not much you can do in those cases.

Do you also bill them for the main pack job after inspecting it?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[masterrig 1]

I suspend the parachute and go through as if it were a reserve. Like you stated, if the main is not there...oh, well! If, the owner wants me to re-pack the main, yes, I charge 5-bucks. Hope, this helps.

Chuck

[FrogNog 1]

Deuce, can we get a photo showing the burr? Is it sufficiently visible? Or can you detect it by feel?

The reason I ask is it's possible some pins have burrs that aren't causing bridle failure, for whatever reason (e.g. burr in a "lucky location"). Certainly, people will report when their PC detaches from their pin. But if the burr can be detected separately, that would be more info for people to look for. (Like when I pack for other people, hypothetically speaking as a non-rigger.)

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[mouth 0]

I've sent the pin to Sunpath along with the bridle. I could only see the burr when the pin whas held in the right light, but one of the guys showed how it snagged on a pullup cord so it was enough cause problems.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[Deuce 1]

Yeah, Frog, I don't have it. I have no reason to suspect Sunpath, but I wish we had good macro pictures of the defect before it was sent in.

[mjosparky 4]

JP,

I am not a big fan of "shit happens". There is a cause/reason for everything. It a matter of taking the time and effort to find it.

I went through the supply of pins I have, 543, and did not find any burrs. I took a 2 foot piece of braided nylon line and ran it through the pin hole. This stuff will snag on rough skin on your hands. It took me about 25 minutes which shows me a QA point during manufacturing would be a snap.

RTB,

They are not stamped out of sheet metal, but Stainless Steel. They are then tumbled to smooth them out and round the edges.

I think it would be a good thing for everyone to either check their pin or have it checked before they jump again.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

They are not stamped out of sheet metal, but Stainless Steel.

Yep.

Quote

They are then tumbled to smooth them out and round the edges.

The good ones have the hole counter sunk before tumbling as well.

I just know this......

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[usskydiver 0]

Deuce,
It was great to meet you at Nationals even if only for a few minutes. I also discovered a pin that had frayed nearly halfway through the type 4 (it was a pull out). I had not worked on the rig in over a year and it had approx. 100-150 jumps since I did the original assembly. Here are my thoughts.

It is very tough to detect as the type 4 is cut by the burr(s) from the inside.

I changed out the pin and gave the original to the manufacturer who also took the time to write down the S/N of the rig...hence...further investigation

The mfr explained that when the pins are stamped and if the stamping dye is worn a burr can be made but is very tough to tumble out because it is on the inside of the hole.

This was a very small burr and those who have been around long enough to remember brass or zinc plated brass grommets can attest to them not only coming from the mfr but developing over time due to use, misuse etc.

I'm certain that if the owner contacts the mfr it will be "made right."

In summary..thorough inspections are the key to maintenance.

Tim T.
Team Paraclete

[mouth 0]

OK, just heard from Sunpath. They feel that when I had the rigger look at the threads that were showing and she tacked them down she tightened the webbing around the pin causing the burr to pull on a concentrated area making it fail.

Moral...send stuff to the manufacturer. You may not jump for a w/e or two but maybe they would have caught it before a total failure.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[Deuce 1]

Quote

OK, just heard from Sunpath. They feel that when I had the rigger look at the threads that were showing and she tacked them down she tightened the webbing around the pin causing the burr to pull on a concentrated area making it fail.

Moral...send stuff to the manufacturer. You may not jump for a w/e or two but maybe they would have caught it before a total failure.

Wait a second. The problem was not the burr, but that an "aftermarket" rigger tightened the bridle down too much on it?

Is Sunpath charging for the repair?

[mouth 0]

I think the burr still caused it eventually but the rigger trying to fix the problem made it worse.

Does that make sense?

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[chopchop 0]

Somehow I knew SunPath would not take responsibility.. World's greatest shirkers.. Ahh.. well.. Lisa, welcome to the club of paying for SunPath's mistakes.

chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

[hookitt 1]

Quote

I think the burr still caused it eventually but the rigger trying to fix the problem made it worse.

Does that make sense?

Not a bit. If there was a burr, it matters not how tight the bridle was sewn in place. I've built over a hundred bridles. NONE have failed.

Unless the burr was caused by the rigger, that's absolute crap.

[usskydiver 0]

Quote

Somehow I knew SunPath would not take responsibility.. World's greatest shirkers.. Ahh.. well.. Lisa, welcome to the club of paying for SunPath's mistakes.

Roy,
That's bullshit and I think you know it. are you grinding an old axe? I'm not try to stir up shit, so please don't think I am. You can check me out if you wish. I have owned 4 Javelins (by choice) and packed a couple of hundred more. They are as easy to deal with as any other mfr. out there. I've called for rigging advice from all mfr's and have always received the same prompt. courteous, results to my questions (even today on an unclear issue).

Lisa will receive the same great customer service as she would receive from any other mfr. If she dosen't she can let me know and I'll fix her problem, guaranteed.

This is not an attack so please take it as one. All mfr's are in business to sell equipment and keep ALL of us jumping. No one in this business makes mistakes or sends out faulty equipment intentionally!

Tim T.
Team Paraclete

[usskydiver 0]

Tim,
I think you are wrong. When the rigger tightened the loop by tacking it, he/she increased the contact on the burr and aggrivated the condition. IMHO

Tim T.
Team Paraclete

[hookitt 1]

Quote

and aggrivated the condition

It aggravated an *existing* condition . How does that make it the riggers fault? It may have been tighter but that doesn’t account for wearing it through. Realize the force a pin takes. Realize how many jumps are put on a bridle with complete success. Less than 100 jumps on a bridle that had the pin secured because the threads were pulling loose should in no way make that the riggers fault… I stand by my statement as someone who has made many many parts.

If you look at the pictures you can see the burr. Macro photos would be better but they are not available. Nonetheless, the burr is visible.

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

OK, just heard from Sunpath. They feel that when I had the rigger look at the threads that were showing and she tacked them down she tightened the webbing around the pin causing the burr to pull on a concentrated area making it fail.

Moral...send stuff to the manufacturer. You may not jump for a w/e or two but maybe they would have caught it before a total failure.

What a load of crap!

The problem is the burr, not the tightness of the bridle.

Shame on you Sunpath, that attitude will become a reputation that will be hard to live down.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am