Ron 10 #51 November 12, 2004 QuoteSome jumpers want to see that flash(they paid fore it) If the Vigil is installed in a setup like most sport rigs on the market today , the jumper must ask the pilot to wait a few moments before he rides down with the aircraft because he has to get out of his gear and shut his Vigil off. Anyone else think thats dumb?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #52 November 12, 2004 QuoteQuoteSome jumpers want to see that flash(they paid fore it) If the Vigil is installed in a setup like most sport rigs on the market today , the jumper must ask the pilot to wait a few moments before he rides down with the aircraft because he has to get out of his gear and shut his Vigil off. Anyone else think thats dumb? Dumb? Yes. Patently ridiculous? Absolutely.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivespass01 0 #53 November 12, 2004 A Cypres has to be switched off too no? Or is this only for the student version? Femke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #54 November 12, 2004 Student cypres units seemed to have similar issues when I was learning at my old DZ. The instructors ensured they were deactivated before any descent. The problem AFAIK is the danger of the aircraft exceeding the lower descent rate trigger of the device when beneath the firing altitude. It doesn't seem like you'd have to tell the pilot to wait unless he turned back real low. The student gear had the AAD easily accessible beside the reserve pin making this simple. This may just be a sensible precaution for a device which optionally supports a student mode, i.e. lower activation descent rate (and possibly higher altitude?). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #55 November 12, 2004 QuoteA Cypres has to be switched off too no? Or is this only for the student version? It is recommended to turn the STUDENT CYPRES off before descent"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #56 November 12, 2004 >Anyone else think thats dumb? I think it's dumb to install a Vigil in a way that the control unit is inaccessible and invisible, since it's not designed for that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #57 November 12, 2004 QuoteI think it's dumb to install a Vigil in a way that the control unit is inaccessible and invisible, since it's not designed for that. But you don't think its dumb that you have to turn the unit off for a plane ride down?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivespass01 0 #58 November 12, 2004 Hi Ron Yes you are right! I just read it in my manual. It is only recommended for the student Cypres! By the Vigil it is for all models recommended. In that case is this for example for a staticline instructor very inconvenient as the last one on board and propably going down with the plane to know you actually had to shut off your Vigil. However, I would not take my chute off to switch the Vigil off but ask the pilot to do that for me. But this will cost some time and he has to fly the plane... And with for example a big dropzone with static line jumps all day long, sooner or later a instructor will forget to switch it off. My best option will be not to switch it on at all but what is the use of a AAD than? Femke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specnaz007 0 #59 November 12, 2004 QuoteHowever, I would not take my chute off to switch the Vigil off but ask the pilot to do that for me. But this will cost some time and he has to fly the plane... Or worse having to deal with an unwilling AFF Student or having a tandempassenger on your belly! Garik Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #60 November 12, 2004 QuoteHi Ron Yes you are right! I just read it in my manual. It is only recommended for the student Cypres! By the Vigil it is for all models recommended. Femke A vigil is multi-mode the one unit can operate in student, expert or tandem mode. Hence I expect the catchall warning, it makes perfect sense to me if they're covering for the possibility that you may have it in student mode and not realize it. Making the assumption that this is because of a product flaw or plain dumb instead of a sensible CYA precaution for a user programmable device is taking things a bit far IMHO. P.S. it makes even more sense when you consider that Vigil is having to satisfy the concerns of parachute associations in scores of countries and gain a measure of acceptance. They have my sympathies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivespass01 0 #61 November 13, 2004 QuoteHence I expect the catchall warning, it makes perfect sense to me if they're covering for the possibility that you may have it in student mode and not realize it. ??????????? Why not in TANDEM MODE without realizing it. Sorry but your remark makes by my opinion no sence at all when it comes to riding down with the plane without switching it OFF (like with the expert and tandem Cypres. I am glad they have your symphaty but I see here riggers, experienced skydivers and engineers raising their doubts... Femke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #62 November 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteHence I expect the catchall warning, it makes perfect sense to me if they're covering for the possibility that you may have it in student mode and not realize it. ??????????? Why not in TANDEM MODE without realizing it. Sorry but your remark makes by my opinion no sence at all when it comes to riding down with the plane without switching it OFF (like with the expert and tandem Cypres. I am glad they have your symphaty but I see here riggers, experienced skydivers and engineers raising their doubts... Femke Are you serious? It seems that you have a problem understanding my post. I'm speculating that because it might be set by the user to *any* mode including those with low speed activation, deactivation could be a sensible precaution for the device instead of "dumb". It's a really simple observation to understand. Your other post was confused about the Vigil's programmability stating that it made no sense for expert versions. Once again a single Vigil can be set to one of several modes it is a multi-mode AAD. Maybe there's a language problem here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #63 November 14, 2004 QuoteA Cypres has to be switched off too no? Or is this only for the student version? It is recommended to turn the STUDENT CYPRES off before descent Of course not. During my AFF process, I went down 3 times with the plane, never switched off the Cypres. Even a nose-dive is not quick enough to activate the AAD. Never had any problem on that. Christel dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivespass01 0 #61 November 13, 2004 QuoteHence I expect the catchall warning, it makes perfect sense to me if they're covering for the possibility that you may have it in student mode and not realize it. ??????????? Why not in TANDEM MODE without realizing it. Sorry but your remark makes by my opinion no sence at all when it comes to riding down with the plane without switching it OFF (like with the expert and tandem Cypres. I am glad they have your symphaty but I see here riggers, experienced skydivers and engineers raising their doubts... Femke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #62 November 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteHence I expect the catchall warning, it makes perfect sense to me if they're covering for the possibility that you may have it in student mode and not realize it. ??????????? Why not in TANDEM MODE without realizing it. Sorry but your remark makes by my opinion no sence at all when it comes to riding down with the plane without switching it OFF (like with the expert and tandem Cypres. I am glad they have your symphaty but I see here riggers, experienced skydivers and engineers raising their doubts... Femke Are you serious? It seems that you have a problem understanding my post. I'm speculating that because it might be set by the user to *any* mode including those with low speed activation, deactivation could be a sensible precaution for the device instead of "dumb". It's a really simple observation to understand. Your other post was confused about the Vigil's programmability stating that it made no sense for expert versions. Once again a single Vigil can be set to one of several modes it is a multi-mode AAD. Maybe there's a language problem here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #63 November 14, 2004 QuoteA Cypres has to be switched off too no? Or is this only for the student version? It is recommended to turn the STUDENT CYPRES off before descent Of course not. During my AFF process, I went down 3 times with the plane, never switched off the Cypres. Even a nose-dive is not quick enough to activate the AAD. Never had any problem on that. Christel dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #64 November 14, 2004 From the CYPRES 1 User's Guide: QuoteCYPRES USER’S GUIDE 2.2 Student CYPRES The Student CYPRES can be recognized by the yellow button with the imprint "Student" on the control unit. It will activate the EOS when the rate of descent exceeds 29mph (13m/sec). The activation altitude is split. In the case of rate of descent being equal to that of freefall the opening altitude is at approx. 750 feet, being the same as with Expert CYPRES. However, should the rate of descent be lower than that of freefall but still above the limit of 29mph (e.g. with partially opened canopy), then Student CYPRES activates the EOS when the altitude decreases below 1000 feet above ground level. The student will then have some more time to prepare for landing. If a jump plane is descending without having dropped, switch the Student CYPRES off! Be aware that it is possible to exceed a vertical speed of 29 mph under a fully inflated canopy! Unlike the Expert CYPRES models, we recommend that the Student CYPRES be switched off in the aircraft prior to descent if the jump is aborted and the student will land with the plane. Be careful in assuming that because you got away with it a couple of times because your Instructors chose not to follow the manufacturer's instructions that it will never happen to anyone. What you say is true of the Expert & Tandem CYPRES models. It is common these days for skydiving schools to have Expert models in their student gear. Is it possible your student rigs during your AFF training had Experct CYPRESs installed?Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specnaz007 0 #65 November 14, 2004 I do understand your point. However, the Vigil is sold as a multimode device. That should be than multimode all the way. This means that if programmed in: Pro, you don't have to switch it off if you go down with the plane. Tandem, you don't have to switch it off if you go down with the plane. Student, you have to switch it off if you go down with the plane. This seems not to be possible by the Vigil. Wherever in programmed (Student Pro or Tandem) and you have to go down with the plane you have to switch it off. This is very inconveniant. Garik Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 28 #66 November 14, 2004 Always check the Vigil homepage and contact the manufacturer before the next Jump. Because: They reserve the right to make changes and improvements to any of the products described in this guide without prior notice. *** this is coming from a master rigger & i guess this is one of the most important sentences in the whole thread. edit: this is not really directed to you - just didn't want that to go unnoticedThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specnaz007 0 #67 November 14, 2004 QuoteAlways check the Vigil homepage and contact the manufacturer before the next Jump. Because: They reserve the right to make changes and improvements to any of the products described in this guide without prior notice. ------------------------------------------------------------ this is coming from a master rigger & i guess this is one of the most important sentences in the whole thread. edit: this is not really directed to you - just didn't want that to go unnoticed I agree and there are many things that should not go unnoticed like the reprogramming of the Vigil (on which grounds they have permission to be used in Germany again). I checked by riggers and Vigil users. They are not aware (i.e. informed by Vigil) about this! Mandatory or not it sounds to me like a recall (at least as you want your Vigil to switch on at sea level and without adjusting it with 50 meters (160 feet)... Garik PS shipping and repack is for your own expense... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #68 November 14, 2004 Quote Be careful in assuming that because you got away with it a couple of times because your Instructors chose not to follow the manufacturer's instructions that it will never happen to anyone. What you say is true of the Expert & Tandem CYPRES models. It is common these days for skydiving schools to have Expert models in their student gear. Is it possible your student rigs during your AFF training had Experct CYPRESs installed Really, I do not remember the Cypres model at those times and I was not experienced enough to notice any difference. It was a normal student rig handed over to me. Cypres was switched on. As a student, I just was upset to ride down with the plane and asking for the Cypres to be switched off was too far away from thinking about.... Later, I never rode down with a plane again but, never will stop learning.That's why I'm here. Christel dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #69 November 14, 2004 QuoteReally, I do not remember the Cypres model at those times and I was not experienced enough to notice any difference. It was a normal student rig handed over to me. Cypres was switched on. Understandable to a degree, but in my opinion your Instructors at some point during your progression should have taught you the differences between the three models and how to idetify them. QuoteAs a student, I just was upset to ride down with the plane and asking for the Cypres to be switched off was too far away from thinking about.... Again, your Instructors should have handled this for you. They bear the largest part of that responsibility. Besides, the CYPRES may have been in a location where you were unable to switch it off yourself anyway. QuoteLater, I never rode down with a plane again but, never will stop learning.That's why I'm here. You and me both! I hope I never stop learning in this wonderful sport of ours! Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #70 November 15, 2004 QuoteI do understand your point. However, the Vigil is sold as a multimode device. That should be than multimode all the way. This means that if programmed in: Pro, you don't have to switch it off if you go down with the plane. Tandem, you don't have to switch it off if you go down with the plane. Student, you have to switch it off if you go down with the plane. This seems not to be possible by the Vigil. Wherever in programmed (Student Pro or Tandem) and you have to go down with the plane you have to switch it off. This is very inconveniant. Garik Of course but as I've speculated already it may be a precaution merely to eliminate a potential concern. People make mistakes, borrow rigs etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #71 November 15, 2004 Had some very exciting ride-downs in a porter after dropping students and going down to pick another lift. NEVER experienced a problem with the Expert cypres. Believe me the pilot really knew how to keep the plane diving till a couple of seconds before landing. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #72 November 15, 2004 QuoteIt is recommended to turn the STUDENT CYPRES off before descent -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of course not. During my AFF process, I went down 3 times with the plane, never switched off the Cypres. Even a nose-dive is not quick enough to activate the AAD. Read the manual, and then get back to us."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #73 November 15, 2004 Read the manual, and then get back to us *** Yes, Ron, dear. It's already clarified. Slotperfect explained perfect enough to me. I understood what he said. What's your point, Ron? Christel dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4XTTTOM 0 #74 November 16, 2004 Hi Schwede, Sorry for this late answer, but we are verry bussy at this moment. I have made an attachment, with all the answers made by AAD-VIGIL to the Swedisch parachute ass. Cu around TomGeorge Diotme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #75 November 16, 2004 QuoteRead the manual, and then get back to us -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, Ron, dear. It's already clarified. Slotperfect explained perfect enough to me. I understood what he said. What's your point, Ron? My point was I replied to you replying to me, and did not see that someone else had answered it already."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
