Which canopy for School?

[freeflygirlz 0]

Hi!
I'm head of our Skydiving school and I want to buy new canopies and want to hear your advice.
Our Students start jumping on PD Navigator 280. After about 20 jumps they jump 7-cell 210s, which we want to change now. The canopy should be a 210 again and a mix of zero-P and F111 material oder zero-P only. It should be more agile than the Navigator to prepare the students for high-performance canopies, but docile enough to prevent landing injuries. I'm thinking about:

Silhoutte (PD)
Pilot (Aerodyne)
Elektra (Parachute de France)
Safire (Icarus)

Please post your opinion about these canopies and tell me which other I should consider.

Thanks a lot and blue skies

[gerrcoin 0]

I can't really comment on those canopies that you have listed due to unfamiliarity with them. However I would like to suggest the PD Spectre 210. It's a nice intermediate level, zero P, 7 cell canopy.

Also you might want to consider an intermediate wing area for students, like a Navigator 240. Downsizing from a 280 to a 210 in one go is a major step. The student gear at my DZ has Nav 280s for first time jumpers and then uses smaller sizes (260, 240 and 220) so that the students can downsize in small steps quite safely. Ideally they will be jumping at a loading of around 1.1:1 by the time they finish student progression and go buying their own gear.

[freakflyer9999 1]

First let me say that I haven't jumped any of the canopies on your list other than the Navigator.

I am a large guy. About 295 out the door and just recently demoed a Navigator 280, which would put my wing loading at 1.05:1. I found the Navigator to be very responsive at this loading. It had plenty of flare and by using a two stage flare I was able to get a short surf on a straight in approach. I suspect with a little effort that I could get it to surf even more, yet be easily recoverable in the case of a slight pilot error. I would think that the Navigator would make a great transition canopy in smaller sizes.

I did find that the Navigator had higher front riser pressure than the various 7 cell canopies (Omega, Triathlon, Spectre) that I've jumped.

FYI. The majority of my experience is on either a PD Sabre or an Icarus Omega, though I have also jumped the Triathlon and the Spectre all at wing loadings between 1.10 to 1.30.

[skycat 0]

You may also want to think about adding a 190 to the pool, that way when you have smaller jumpers (ie exit weight of 120 lbs)they have something to downsize to while they are still under instructor supervision.

Fly it like you stole it!

[feuergnom 29]

the smaller canopies in our school are pilots.

from all student canopies i have flown, pilots are IMHO the best to handle.
students love them (except for packing ) and they are (from what i know) cheaper than the other canopies

just my 0,2 (euro)cents

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[freeflygirlz 0]

Thanks for your answers so far!
We are a rather small DZ and school and I do know, that we should have a 240 canopy, but as we don't have so many gears, I prefer to have 2 or 3 canopies of the same size. Otherwise students would either have to change the canopy-size too often (down and up again, as the gears are available) or I would even be forced to ground a student.
After the 210 canopy we put them on 190 PDs (sooner or later I would like to get Sabres or similar canopies instead of PDs)
I'm pleased to hear your opinion and advice
blue skies

[darkwing 5]

I also agree that a spectre is something to consider. I have 600 spectre 190 jumps, and now jump a pilot 168. I think the Spectre would be a fine transitional canopy. I also agree with the idea of a mix of sizes. It gives you more wing loading possibilities to play with during a students progression.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[ps5601 0]

I have jumped both the Electa and the Pilot, both 150s (wl 1.3:1). While I have only done a couple of jumps on each my experience of them was the both opened nice with the pilot probably being a little slower to open, but neither was excessively fast or slow.

I felt that the Pilot had a slightly higher decent rate than the Electra, both had a similar recovery arc from a dive and similar rate of turn. On landing I felt that the Electra was slightly more responsive into the flare, but both should be fairly easy for an intermediate jumper to land.

Not jumped either the safire or the siloutte so can't really help you there. However I thought that the Siloutte was pretty much a scaled down Navigator?

Hope this is of some help

Blue skies

Paul

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

We use Navigators in sizes 260, 240, and 220 for students and will probably end up with one of the largest ones and at least one 200. The great majority of our students start out on 240's. For "other" rental, post-AFF rigs, we have a combo of PD Spectres and Sabre2's in various smaller sizes (down to 170).

[Douva 0]

Quote

You may also want to think about adding a 190 to the pool, that way when you have smaller jumpers (ie exit weight of 120 lbs)they have something to downsize to while they are still under instructor supervision.

I agree. If you're switching to ZP, think about adding smaller canopies. Putting a 105 lb. girl out in 14mph winds under a 210 sf ZP canopy probably isn't going to give her enough penetration on final. As for good student canopies, I think the Spectre is a great 7-cell, and you can't go wrong with the Sabre 2 for a 9-cell.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[billvon 3,058]

Of those I can recommend the Silhouette, the Pilot and the Safire 2. (Do not get a Safire 1.) I have had good luck with larger sizes of all three of those. I would tend to recommend the Silhouette if packing is an issue (it's partly ZP.) Another nice thing about the Silhouette is that it tends to fly 'small' i.e. a Silhouette 230 flies like a Sabre 1 210.

[riggerrob 643]

At Pitt Meadows we have a Goliath 340 for big students, but most of the first jump students use Manta 290, Skymaster 290 or Solo 270 canopies.
Sometimes we give small first jump students Skymaster 230s.
Then we have four Hornet 190s for rental rigs.
We often have a Sabre (Mark 1) 170 for rent.

The next time we buy student canopies, it will probably be a mixture of Solos and Pilots.

[Beachbum 0]

Speaking from a student perspective ... I have to agree. Two times while in AFF I landed backing up ... and it IS quite unnerving for a student (2nd time I danged near ran it out backward and stayed on my feet tho ... LOL!).

I also agree about the need for a gradual step down in size before going to the person's own gear. Where I took lessons, it was as you describe ... no smaller student canopies, so going off student status and onto my own rig I went from a 215 to a 160 Triathlon (right at 1:1). Everyone told me I'd be fine ... and I was ... but that first jump on it SURE had me nervous!! I had arranged a jump on a 190 first, but the borrowed rig didn't arrive and my new gear had ... may not have been the smartest move ... but I fly very conservatively (especially at 20 jumps) ... and was told to just do that and I'd be fine. I think that part of the decision was because I was afraid of landing backing up again, so wanted more loading to avoid that. Just something to think about!!

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?