dorbie 0 #26 November 11, 2004 QuoteI have an F-16 fighter pilots helmet that works well in regard to your concerns. Carbon Fiber shell and plenty of internal padding. Extremely lightweight and strong. The downside being the $500.00 price tag. That being said, I personally use a frap hat on most dives because I travel a lot and it's easier to pack. Thanks, I hadn't even considered looking at this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1shlips 2 #27 November 11, 2004 QuoteTBI for relatively low impact seems to ignore the point Nope, it is the point. By adding a helmet you're increasing the risk of something else, ie: a basal skull fracture. TBIs aren't always fatal or seriously debilitating, but a basal is. There's this notion that strapping a "magic bucket" to your head will save you. That's just as silly as saying that a "magic aad" will save your life. It may, it might not, it might kill you. Be aware of that and decide for your self. What kind of impacts do you think you might recieve? 1. Hitting your head on the plane? Ok, but what is the most common injury there? I don't know. What is the speed of impact and how much would foam help? 2. Taking a hard dock to the head? I think hard foam would be a hindrance here as the impact is likely to be glancing. I believe, but don't know, that a softer foam (like a protec) would work better. 3. Falling down on the ground? One of the required tests motorcycle helmets (Snell and DOT) is to test the top of it to simulate a curb strike. How well does that test correlate to skydiving accidents? Snell (Last time I read it & spoke with the folks at the Snell Memorial Foundation) excludes dwell time, where DOT mandates 200ms (If I remember correctly). From what the engineers at Snell told me, helmets that pass DOT, have a hard time passing Snell. I find that difficult to come to terms with, as they are both "safety" standards.-- drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #28 November 11, 2004 QuoteQuoteTBI for relatively low impact seems to ignore the point Nope, it is the point. By adding a helmet you're increasing the risk of something else, ie: a basal skull fracture. TBIs aren't always fatal or seriously debilitating, but a basal is.Quote Basal skull fractures are not always fatal and the risk of one would depend on the scenario. Getting over the issue of MC helmets and just looking at skydiving helmets for a moment, one can speculate on scenarios all day long but without statistics and analysis it's just speculation. At the very least the degree of additional weight vs protection needs to be considered. In my opinion most helemts I've seen offer only the illusion of the kinds of protection you need with a significant impact. Padded helmets needn't be significantly heavier some foams are very light weight and the shell needn't vary much from existing designs. In the end it's down to personal judgement but saying that the case for better head protection is silly seems to make too many assumptions. This helmet interests me, but it still isn't full face. At least this company takes the issue of protection and impact forces seriously. http://www.gentexcorp.com/helmetsystems/pmhalo.htm Safety standards need a benchmark for testing, they tend to be limited and somewhat arbitrary. but it doesn't make them worthless. I would be interested in simple weight & deceleration numbers in a standard drop test with a dummy head in the helmet. It would definitely influence my helmet purchasing decision. Gentex has these numbers but doesn't exactly serve our market. Nobody ever said a magic bucket is out there. This started with me looking at my 1/4 inch pad that compresses to about 2mm of hard fibre with no effort and knowing that it's going to do nothing to help my brain in most collisions, so why shell out $300? To make a fashion statement? Like I said if I'm buying a helmet this is the time to consider the kind of protection it offers and it seems to me there's a whole spectrum of possibilities between a cloth lining and a motorcycle helmet that wouldn't be all bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #29 November 11, 2004 Found a company called Oregon Aero that does custom liner upgrades to skydiving helmets and has some interesting products of their own. Skydive helmet upgrades: http://www.oregonaero.com/p77_2001.html#skydive They also detail a drop test here the ANSI 290.21 helmet test: http://www.oregonaero.com/p6971_2001.html#results Seems if they can improve the properties of a decent flight helmet they can probably improve on cloth pads with enough space. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #30 November 12, 2004 Quote From what the engineers at Snell told me, helmets that pass DOT, have a hard time passing Snell. I find that difficult to come to terms with, as they are both "safety" standards. All helmets have to pass DOT (well, certify that it will), so I have a hard time believing such a statement. Snell is an add on certification which requires actual testing and a more difficult criteria standard. A few wonder if meeting Snell's requirements results in a helmet that isn't as suitable for some accident scenarios. Of course, there are always compromises in safety gear. Skydiving helmets aren't about stopping direct blows so much as glancing ones and cuts. Snag your ear or your skin and it could get ugly. Without a windscreen, a full face motorcycle helmet pushes back pretty hard once you get about 65mph. Doesn't sound like fun at 130. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites f1shlips 2 #31 November 12, 2004 Quote Snell is an add on certification which requires actual testing and a more difficult criteria standard. Incorrect, Snell (Currently M2000) is completely different from FMVSS218. Here is the current (M2000) Snell standard: http://www.smf.org/standards/m2000std.htm Here is FMVSS218: http://www.bikersrights.com/nhtsa/fmvss218.html Here is FY2003 data for random tests on DOT "self certified" helmets: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/comply/fmvss218/2182.pdf Notice the performance failures. The dwell time argument came from a Snell engineer I talked to on the phone.-- drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #32 November 12, 2004 It's easy to see that different tests could impose conflicting design requirements, especially if the impact speed and acceptable acceleration was changed. For example, minimizing the G forces in lower speed impacts would burn valuable compression space that might mitigate greater forces in higher speed impacts using firmer material. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #33 November 12, 2004 Quote$800 is extremely cheap for a real GENTEX with coms. FWIW, I still have mine and it's a fantastic helmet for winter riding on my Harley (along with my Scott motocross goggles with rock guard). The only jumping it sees these days is for military demos. Chuck Chuck, You are right, I checked the invoice, $1048.00 without O2 mask and com. Ouch! It is a HGU-33 instead of a HGU-55. But it does have the custom liner and paint. Jim, PM me with the parts you need. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #34 November 12, 2004 QuoteQuote Snell is an add on certification which requires actual testing and a more difficult criteria standard. Incorrect, Snell (Currently M2000) is completely different from FMVSS218. Sorry, you're missing the point. Yes, entirely different standards, but from a legal perspective, Snell is add-on. You must wear a DOT approved helmet, at least in the state of California. You can get a lid that also meets Snell requirements (and pay for extra for the Snell sticker - not all makers do this). You can't get the opposite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rmsmith 1 #35 November 13, 2004 QuoteFound a company called Oregon Aero that does custom liner upgrades to skydiving helmets and has some interesting products of their own. Skydive helmet upgrades: http://www.oregonaero.com/p77_2001.html#skydive They also detail a drop test here the ANSI 290.21 helmet test: http://www.oregonaero.com/p6971_2001.html#results Seems if they can improve the properties of a decent flight helmet they can probably improve on cloth pads with enough space. The issue is money v. time. You can usually get the attention of your favorite manufacturer for $60-$80 per hour to work with you on a custom fitted product. If you have the money, it's usually worth every cent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #36 November 14, 2004 http://www.flightsuits.com/helm_hgu55.html You know, Google usually answers all, and they have a HGU33 and a HGU55 listed cheaper (without a lot of options) then what you stated. You might wanna check out that site.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #37 November 14, 2004 Quotehttp://www.flightsuits.com/helm_hgu55.html You know, Google usually answers all, and they have a HGU33 and a HGU55 listed cheaper (without a lot of options) then what you stated. You might wanna check out that site. Thats where the helmet was purchased. It was a gift and it has all the whistles and bells. When the boss likes you you get neat toys. I wear glasses and the slide visor on the HGU-33 works well with them and fits tight against the O2 mask when needed. Their place is just down the road from our shop. Well just 80 or 90 miles.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
dorbie 0 #29 November 11, 2004 Found a company called Oregon Aero that does custom liner upgrades to skydiving helmets and has some interesting products of their own. Skydive helmet upgrades: http://www.oregonaero.com/p77_2001.html#skydive They also detail a drop test here the ANSI 290.21 helmet test: http://www.oregonaero.com/p6971_2001.html#results Seems if they can improve the properties of a decent flight helmet they can probably improve on cloth pads with enough space. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #30 November 12, 2004 Quote From what the engineers at Snell told me, helmets that pass DOT, have a hard time passing Snell. I find that difficult to come to terms with, as they are both "safety" standards. All helmets have to pass DOT (well, certify that it will), so I have a hard time believing such a statement. Snell is an add on certification which requires actual testing and a more difficult criteria standard. A few wonder if meeting Snell's requirements results in a helmet that isn't as suitable for some accident scenarios. Of course, there are always compromises in safety gear. Skydiving helmets aren't about stopping direct blows so much as glancing ones and cuts. Snag your ear or your skin and it could get ugly. Without a windscreen, a full face motorcycle helmet pushes back pretty hard once you get about 65mph. Doesn't sound like fun at 130. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1shlips 2 #31 November 12, 2004 Quote Snell is an add on certification which requires actual testing and a more difficult criteria standard. Incorrect, Snell (Currently M2000) is completely different from FMVSS218. Here is the current (M2000) Snell standard: http://www.smf.org/standards/m2000std.htm Here is FMVSS218: http://www.bikersrights.com/nhtsa/fmvss218.html Here is FY2003 data for random tests on DOT "self certified" helmets: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/comply/fmvss218/2182.pdf Notice the performance failures. The dwell time argument came from a Snell engineer I talked to on the phone.-- drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #32 November 12, 2004 It's easy to see that different tests could impose conflicting design requirements, especially if the impact speed and acceptable acceleration was changed. For example, minimizing the G forces in lower speed impacts would burn valuable compression space that might mitigate greater forces in higher speed impacts using firmer material. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #33 November 12, 2004 Quote$800 is extremely cheap for a real GENTEX with coms. FWIW, I still have mine and it's a fantastic helmet for winter riding on my Harley (along with my Scott motocross goggles with rock guard). The only jumping it sees these days is for military demos. Chuck Chuck, You are right, I checked the invoice, $1048.00 without O2 mask and com. Ouch! It is a HGU-33 instead of a HGU-55. But it does have the custom liner and paint. Jim, PM me with the parts you need. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #34 November 12, 2004 QuoteQuote Snell is an add on certification which requires actual testing and a more difficult criteria standard. Incorrect, Snell (Currently M2000) is completely different from FMVSS218. Sorry, you're missing the point. Yes, entirely different standards, but from a legal perspective, Snell is add-on. You must wear a DOT approved helmet, at least in the state of California. You can get a lid that also meets Snell requirements (and pay for extra for the Snell sticker - not all makers do this). You can't get the opposite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #35 November 13, 2004 QuoteFound a company called Oregon Aero that does custom liner upgrades to skydiving helmets and has some interesting products of their own. Skydive helmet upgrades: http://www.oregonaero.com/p77_2001.html#skydive They also detail a drop test here the ANSI 290.21 helmet test: http://www.oregonaero.com/p6971_2001.html#results Seems if they can improve the properties of a decent flight helmet they can probably improve on cloth pads with enough space. The issue is money v. time. You can usually get the attention of your favorite manufacturer for $60-$80 per hour to work with you on a custom fitted product. If you have the money, it's usually worth every cent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #36 November 14, 2004 http://www.flightsuits.com/helm_hgu55.html You know, Google usually answers all, and they have a HGU33 and a HGU55 listed cheaper (without a lot of options) then what you stated. You might wanna check out that site.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #37 November 14, 2004 Quotehttp://www.flightsuits.com/helm_hgu55.html You know, Google usually answers all, and they have a HGU33 and a HGU55 listed cheaper (without a lot of options) then what you stated. You might wanna check out that site. Thats where the helmet was purchased. It was a gift and it has all the whistles and bells. When the boss likes you you get neat toys. I wear glasses and the slide visor on the HGU-33 works well with them and fits tight against the O2 mask when needed. Their place is just down the road from our shop. Well just 80 or 90 miles.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
