321seeya 0 #1 November 21, 2004 Just wondering if anyone has ever thought of putting 2to1's on tandem canopies. I am sure there are some pro's (really big passengers) and some cons...What do you think? BASE 3:16 - Even if you are about to land on a cop - DONT FORGET TO FLARE! Free the soul -- DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 November 21, 2004 I pretty much wouldn't want because a tandem is already a complicated enought system. Why add anything else.....one of Murphy's laws might take over....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 November 21, 2004 What JP said, not only that but why do you need them? I know that I can pull the front risers (without diveloops), I can pull the rear risers and have no problems with the toggles flying around a Sigma, EZ or Icarus tandem main at the gear limit. Its not hard, just about anyone should be able to without getting fatigued.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #4 November 21, 2004 Quote Its not hard, just about anyone should be able to without getting fatigued. just curious, do you really mean anyone, or any guy, or any tandemmaster? peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #5 November 21, 2004 Funny, when Bill Morrisey first proposed the idea of two students per tandem instructor, Ted Strong nixed the idea. Then - a few years later - Europeans started mailing them photos of 3-way tandems, albeit with small students. The equipment can definitely handle it as some armies jump tandem bundles with exit weights close to 1,000 pounds. I have told my boss that I will cheerfully jump with two Japanese girls strapped to my chest, provided (a) he buys an airplane with a wide ramp and (b) he pays me the same rate as if I jumped with each girl separately. Imagine how much fun it would be to hang under canopy with a pair of Japanese girls excitedly chatting and you not have a clue what they are saying? Hah! Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 November 21, 2004 I really feel like anyone could do it. It might take a little conditioning for some (guy or girl) but anyone could do it. Its not hard.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #7 November 22, 2004 QuoteI really feel like anyone could do it. It might take a little conditioning for some (guy or girl) but anyone could do it. Its not hard. You seriously overestimate the strength of "average" people, Dave as you are "ape sized". Very few average-sized people with 200 pounders strapped to the front of them are going to be able to use the risers of most tandem canopies. Likewise, there are a lot of tandem instructors out there who simply can't completely flare (with flare toggles and toggles in hand) older and/or larger tandem gear, particularly after a long day of meat-hauling. I don't ever need help landing with my Firebolt 350, an Icarus of any size, a Cobalt 350, or a Sigma 370, but I regularly used my passenger/student on old 421's, 500's, and even EZ 384's. I am far from weak, but could still absolutely see the benefit of some 2 to 1's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #8 November 22, 2004 Okay, I'll ask, what are 2to1's?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #9 November 22, 2004 QuoteOkay, I'll ask, what are 2to1's? Glad someone did, cos there appears to be at least two entirely different conversations going on here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #10 November 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteOkay, I'll ask, what are 2to1's? Glad someone did, cos there appears to be at least two entirely different conversations going on here. I am assuming that the original poster was talking about two-to-one mechanical advantage toggles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 November 22, 2004 QuoteI am assuming that the original poster was talking about two-to-one mechanical advantage toggles. Same here. I view adding something like that to a system that "aint broke" is adding complication that could further go wrong. Other additions like an integrated collin's laynard, the RSL and now the Skyhook I would consider a step in the right direction, adding to overall safety, thus outweighing the added complication. SM1, I guess I wouldn't know since the oldest "old style" tandem canopy I've jumped and regularly jump is an EZ-384 (even has a 6-grommet slider), but I jump Sigma canopies and Icarus canopies (I have jumped the Firebolt, haven't jumped the Cobalt tandem canopy, though). I honestly think, though, if someone has problems even flaring by themselves then they should reconsider doing tandem, since not every student will be able to help every time. Atleast they should get in the gym and work on building up those muscle groups. There are some real basic excersizes that simulate flaring (I've posted a "TI workout" on DZ.com before that explained my take on how to train to be a TI). And I guess you are right, I was overestimating "average" strength.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #12 November 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteI really feel like anyone could do it. It might take a little conditioning for some (guy or girl) but anyone could do it. Its not hard. You seriously overestimate the strength of "average" people, Dave as you are "ape sized". Very few average-sized people with 200 pounders strapped to the front of them are going to be able to use the risers of most tandem canopies. Likewise, there are a lot of tandem instructors out there who simply can't completely flare (with flare toggles and toggles in hand) older and/or larger tandem gear, particularly after a long day of meat-hauling. I don't ever need help landing with my Firebolt 350, an Icarus of any size, a Cobalt 350, or a Sigma 370, but I regularly used my passenger/student on old 421's, 500's, and even EZ 384's. I am far from weak, but could still absolutely see the benefit of some 2 to 1's. I agree with monkeychucker completely. I would guestimate 60% of men could do it or learn to do it, and maybe 5% of women (Not trying to be sexist here, seriously, we all know the strength advantage men have). I am a big strong girl, and it is hard for me. I work out, I do all those arm and shoulder exercises, and it's still hard. I can do it, but it takes a lot. I will have heavier passengers help (if their competent), and I train them and practice with them up high, especially after a long saturday. Otherwise, my arms get tired. I could see the benefit of 2 to 1's (a pulley advantage we're talking about here, not two little passengers!). The only thing I could see against 2 to 1's, is that the stroke of the flare is long already, and it would take an even longer stroke to use the pulley advatage. So even if they could incorporate them safely, I don't think our reach would be long enough to get a full flare. I've also recently talked to a Tandem Course Director who did not rate several people because they didn't have the strength to land the canopy on their own. You are ape-sized, Dave, but we won't hold that against you! peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #13 November 22, 2004 A 2-1 pulley would result in twice the toggle stroke. No one I know has arms that long...well, maybe one or two TM's whose knuckles drag the ground when they walk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #14 November 23, 2004 If you have problems in flaring alone. 1) WORK OUT! 2) But a modern canopy 3) Quit doing tandems I'm 70kg and have an office job during the week. I do not have problems with passengers uptill 110kg on any canopy I've jumped. BT80 (I love it), Sigma, Icarus, Twin EZ and Contrail (Try the last one for toggleload) Trick is (with a heavy passenger) do not waist your strength with steering/spinning the canopy. If the passenger wants that he shall help with the spin. Not with the flare ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #15 November 23, 2004 Overly-complex way to do it. The toggle pressure and control stroke are completely configurable on a canopy, just by varying the attachment points of the upper steering lines on the trailing edge. Assuming the outer upper steering lines are always attached to the outer corners of the canopy: a) Move the inner upper steering lines OUTWARD. This puts a SMALLER percentage of the trailing edge in the steering line set, and results in a LARGER percentage of the tail un-attached in between the steering line sets. RESULT: LOWER toggle pressure, but LONGER control stroke. b) Move the inner upper steering line INWARD This puts a LARGER percentage of the trailing edge in the steering line set, and results in a SMALLER percentage of the tail un-attached in between the steering lines sets. RESULT: HIGHER toggle pressure, but SHORTER control stroke. This is the reason the Sigmas have the additional flare toggles. It is also the reason you see complaints from people who jump grossly overloaded small reserves griping about the canopy stalling before they reached the end their control stroke. (Bear in mind that making these changes, also requires re-adjust the of the deployment brake settings.)"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
