Fun question from an 11 yr old

[phreeloader 0]

So my son & I were talking about skydiving, and out of the blue he comes up with "what would happen in you threw a flying squirrel out of an airplane?" ...

I'm seriously torn on whether or not the squirrel would make it.. You gotta figure when it comes to weight/sqft flying squirrels are loaded pretty light, so I think there's a chance it might... but since i don't know the terminal velocity of a flying squirrel.. or what kind of forces it can survive on impact i couldn't answer with certainty

thoughts?

[quade 4]

Assuming the squirrel doesn't flip out from lack of reference points or become fatigued by holding flying position for a longer than normal period, he'd land like he always does.

They're not going to fall any faster than their normal gliding speed; they'd just be gliding longer.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,065]

I bet they're like chickens. They fly OK for a little while, then they get tired, their wings fold up and they plummet like . . . well, flightless birds.

[skydiver30960 0]

Are we to assume the flying squirrel makes it to terminal velocity jumping from one tree to the next?

AND, are we talking about an African or European flying squirrel?

Elvisio "Ni!" Rodriguez

[quade 4]

skydiver30960

Are we to assume the flying squirrel makes it to terminal velocity jumping from one tree to the next?

No, but that's the point. Flying squirrels for the most part don't fall at terminal velocity. They generally fall at a much slower glide speed. Kinda the entire point of evolving all that extra skin.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

billvon

I bet they're like chickens. They fly OK for a little while, then they get tired, their wings fold up and they plummet like . . . well, flightless birds.

But chicken wings and connecting muscles are almost vestigial. Flying squirrels, on the other hand are taking advantage of something which has actively evolved. I mean, you might be right, I even left that open as a possibility in my first response, but I don't think that's really what the question was about from an 11-year-old. My guess is it came from the supposition they would, even while gliding, continue to accelerate all the way to the ground.

We'd obviously have to ask the kid for the intent of his question.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[phreeloader 0]

quade

My guess is it came from the supposition they would, even while gliding, continue to accelerate all the way to the ground.

We'd obviously have to ask the kid for the intent of his question.

We talked about that.. and came to the conclusion that they would fall more slowly due to their "wing suits" it evolved into the same line of discussion that this thread is going.. as to wondering how long they could hold it, and if they could hold it for 13,000ft would it cause them to build up so much forward speed that it would kill or injure the squirrel on landing

[SansSuit 1]

I say we need a real world test.

Oh, Rockyyyyyy. Come here, Rocky. Bullwinkle, have you seen Rocky?

Peace,
-Dawson.
http://www.SansSuit.com
The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

Well, their terminal velocity has to be pretty low anyway and the way they fly doesn't burn an awful lot of energy. They're also designed to be able to land. The flight would probably be pretty similar to watching a tiny wingsuiter. I'd be optimistic that the squirrel would survive unharmed.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[mistercwood 287]

skydiver30960

AND, are we talking about an African or European flying squirrel?

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[skydiver30960 0]

quade

My guess is it came from the supposition they would, even while gliding, continue to accelerate all the way to the ground.

This was my point exactly about them not reaching terminal velocity. They haven't reached their fastest falling speed, given their current configuration.

Someone from the wingsuit forum should be able to help...

Elvisio "moose and squirrel" Rodriguez

[Squeak 17]

quade

***Are we to assume the flying squirrel makes it to terminal velocity jumping from one tree to the next?

No, but that's the point. Flying squirrels for the most part don't fall at terminal velocity. They generally fall at a much slower glide speed. Kinda the entire point of evolving all that extra skin.
Your thinking is flawed. (no surprise) a gliding mammal generally does not reach it's terminal velocity The tree to tree glide is for no more than a couple of seconds. at that time interval they never reach their terminal speed, (either glide or fall).
Exiting a plane a gliding mammal would have enough time to reach it's terminal speed. which i hazard a guess would be a tad faster than the tree to tree speed.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[BigMark 1]

Just use a cat with a wingsuit.

[ryoder 1,590]

BigMark

Just use a cat with a wingsuit.

That would certainly make the Georgia State Cat Chasing Championships a lot more challenging.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[quade 4]

phreeloader

***My guess is it came from the supposition they would, even while gliding, continue to accelerate all the way to the ground.

We'd obviously have to ask the kid for the intent of his question.

We talked about that.. and came to the conclusion that they would fall more slowly due to their "wing suits" it evolved into the same line of discussion that this thread is going.. as to wondering how long they could hold it, and if they could hold it for 13,000ft would it cause them to build up so much forward speed that it would kill or injure the squirrel on landing

If they could hold it for 13,000 feet, then they would simply land.

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/210/8/1413.full

The paper suggests the most difficult distance for a flying squirrel is in the 3 to 6 meter range. Below that range gliding isn't required as much and beyond that they have gained enough airspeed to flair for landing, but in that range maximum forces present themselves, without enough aerodynamic forces to compensate.

This is roughly analogous to how low a BASE jump a human can make. Jump from 3 feet off the ground and you don't require a parachute at all. Jumps any higher than say, 3000 feet, make absolutely no difference. Jumps in the 100 foot range? Ooh...tricky.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[normiss 848]

Cardboard boxes.
LOTS of them.

[JohnMitchell 16]

quade

***I bet they're like chickens. They fly OK for a little while, then they get tired, their wings fold up and they plummet like . . . well, flightless birds.

My guess is it came from the supposition they would, even while gliding, continue to accelerate all the way to the ground.

I've only watched a few glide, but they seemed to reach flying velocity fairly quickly and fly at a steady speed after that. I disagree with your supposition. I think they'd hit their glide speed and hold it, just like any other flying object.

[quade 4]

JohnMitchell

I disagree with your supposition.

Yeah, but are you just doing that out of habit? Because it was never my supposition they'd continue to accelerate once they hit their normal glide speed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,065]

>Flying squirrels, on the other hand are taking advantage of something which has actively evolved.

Well, right - but evolved for five second glides, not ten minute ones.

It would also depend on the squirrel I would think. A sugar glider would probably land just fine even with wings collapsed; a wooly squirrel would probably make a decent crater unless he could keep his wings out for landing.

How to test this, how to test this . . . .

[quade 4]

billvon

How to test this, how to test this . . . .

The paper I cited higher up seemed to indicate upper limit "natural" landings where about 9g to 10g with no side effects. Certainly it would be trivial to build a model and toss it from an airplane.

By comparison, most seats in most aircraft only have to survive a 9g impact because beyond that it normally isn't going to make a difference (you're already beyond screwed).

This entire discussion hardens back at least 10 or so years when we first started discussing the feasibility of humans landing wing suits. As both of us noted back then, things don't scale. Flying squirrels, some of them anyway, do leap from tree top to ground. In that time, I'm fairly certain they do pretty much reach their best glide speed and probably do stop accelerating. I mean, think of a properly trimmed out paper airplane; it doesn't take more than a second or two from launch to stabilize its speed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jtval 0]

phreeloader

and if they could hold it for 13,000ft would it cause them to build up so much forward speed that it would kill or injure the squirrel on landing

This is an instance where base jumping would come before skydiving since, well, the squirrel is already BASE'ing.

but, you, humans have to give it more of a challenge. start with a 400+ft bridge. then take it to a higher cliff. and a higher one etc...see it the splat effect is reached from a fjord.
If not....SKYDIVE with it. LOL it would jsut be so hard to keep track of it, without a gps system on it.

My photos

My Videos

[JohnMitchell 16]

quade

***How to test this, how to test this . . . .

By comparison, most seats in most aircraft only have to survive a 9g impact because beyond that it normally isn't going to make a difference (you're already beyond screwed).

Col. Stapp did 42+ G's in his rocket sled experiments and survived. I'd hate to try it, though.

Quote

As both of us noted back then, things don't scale. Flying squirrels, some of them anyway, do leap from tree top to ground. In that time, I'm fairly certain they do pretty much reach their best glide speed and probably do stop accelerating. I mean, think of a properly trimmed out paper airplane; it doesn't take more than a second or two from launch to stabilize its speed.


I agree with all of that (just to confound you).

[quade 4]

Quote

Col. Stapp did 42+ G's in his rocket sled experiments and survived. I'd hate to try it, though.

Difference being the entire structure of the sled was designed to stay intact. Most airplanes, however, will start to come apart beyond 9gs so what difference does it make if the seat stays in intact? Again, you're already screwed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[MikeJD 0]

phreeloader

as to wondering how long they could hold it, and if they could hold it for 13,000ft would it cause them to build up so much forward speed that it would kill or injure the squirrel on landing

He wouldn't have to hold it from 13K - he'd just need to deploy at minimum safe altitude, assuming he can still convert his vertical fall into something suitably glide-y. Unfortunately, of course, the squirrel doesn't know that.

***
Cardboard boxes.
LOTS of them.
Yeah. Really, really small ones. Shoeboxes, maybe.

[JohnMitchell 16]

quade

Quote

Col. Stapp did 42+ G's in his rocket sled experiments and survived. I'd hate to try it, though.

Difference being the entire structure of the sled was designed to stay intact. Most airplanes, however, will start to come apart beyond 9gs so what difference does it make if the seat stays in intact? Again, you're already screwed.

Like that old joke of "They should build the entire plane out of the stuff the 'black boxes' are made."

The reality is the plane would (1) be too heavy to fly and (2) the black boxes are often mangled in the crash too.