skygypsie 2 #26 October 30, 2011 That's exactly how he came across when I spoke to him before we visually saw the extent of his actions by his saying: "... we just want to all get along & we won't stop you from clearing your land..." As if to say we wanted it, we took it, let it go If he doesn't settle to our liking...we're taking it to the full extent. If that's to be the case, hopefully a judge will see it this way, as well, & set an example for any future thoughts to do this again ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #27 October 30, 2011 Lawyer up....... The post about adverse possession is on point, too. Time frames are the key in AP. Perhaps the "other" guy has a wrong headed notion OR simply is a dumb bully. DO Lawyer up. A family we know had some land in central Fl. They finally took a vacation to visit their property..... and what did they find on their land..?? Hmmm? DISNEY WORLD!!!! LAWYER UP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #28 October 31, 2011 Quote I've been reading this and it just makes me want to scream. The people who did this have both an entitled and bullying mentality, and work on "forgiveness is easier than permission." I doubt this is the first time they've done this. Don't let the jerks get off easy. Amen to that... In fact.. I would look for any other property they own.. and find out if this is the first time they have pulled this crap. I would lay odds they have a few other neighbors near any other property they own that have been "rewarded" with their neighborly attitude the same way in the past. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowwhite 0 #29 October 31, 2011 I do not know if you know who Don Kirlin is. I do not know if you know about squatters rights. But there has been a VERY recent case in Colorado where a skydiving buddy owned a substantial piece of real estate, and planned to build his retirement dream property on it. He lived not far from it, and he and his wife walked past it weekly. He flew over it regularly. A judge and his wife bought the property next door and began encroaching on the Kirlin property. Even tho the Kirlins were paying real estate property taxes and keeping an eye on the place the 'neighbor' was slowly methodically encroaching and eventually TOOK OVER the property. Indeed, they now OWN the property, even tho they never paid anything for it, and never paid any property taxes on it. Apparently, there is a very old, seldom used, law that states that the person who MAINTAINS a property for a set number of years, now has the OWNERSHIP of it. Get a lawyer!skydiveTaylorville.org freefallbeth@yahoo.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #30 October 31, 2011 Since this is just unfolding I'm doing as much homework as I can, to hold down costs of the eminent attorney retainment ! I did find out he owns a nearly $200,000 lakefront vacation home within 4 miles from this newly aquired piece adjacent to ours, just to build a boat 'garage' on. Our's was/ is, the sole purpose to build our permanent primary residence, hoping to relocate to next spring. Obviously, there is now abit of concern about the "neighbors" This piece is deeded in his & his wife, plus his brother in law & his wife's names. Both couples are non residents of this state. He's owned the lakefront home since '99. It's a very LOVELY place, by the way I have the addresses of both their out of state residences & will check the public records of each, to see their value, etc. I figure it'll give me a better idea of what kind of lucrative fighting $ power they have, to fend this off indefinitely, yadayada ! I'm definitely not going away or giving in, regardless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrokenR1 0 #31 October 31, 2011 Quote I'm so dumb founded as to how this sort of thing could possibly go on, or to how dumb f*@#s think it'd go without consequences It goes on because people figure odds on their side they'll either get away with it or be able to settle for a fraction of what they should pay. Tell them to settle instead of money you'll just accept their land as payment. You gain land and lose a crappy neighbor. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #32 October 31, 2011 This is the extent this low life is... I received a call from the selling realtor of both parcels, to us & them. Evidently, rather than making a good faith offer to settle, nor any other recourse for his responsibility, he's trying to put it on the realty agency. It makes no difference to me what, if any, they relayed during their purchasing transaction...it had nothing to do with us. Dumbass did the damage, held the chain saw & did the dirty deeds Settling with offering us his land & good riddance as a jerk neighbor would be great, as a start... but the amount of damages & losses we have doesn't come close to the value of his land ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #33 October 31, 2011 Quote This is the extent this low life is... I received a call from the selling realtor of both parcels, to us & them. Evidently, rather than making a good faith offer to settle, nor any other recourse for his responsibility, he's trying to put it on the realty agency. It makes no difference to me what, if any, they relayed during their purchasing transaction...it had nothing to do with us. Dumbass did the damage, held the chain saw & did the dirty deeds Settling with offering us his land & good riddance as a jerk neighbor would be great, as a start... but the amount of damages & losses we have doesn't come close to the value of his land ! It would be interesting to know what he did with the logs. If memory serves.. many of the trees, especially the hardwoods like mature maples and oaks have quite a bit of value in that part of the country and fide their way into specialty wood shops for furniture production for VERY expensive pieces that end up in high end stores. Were they sold off at a nice hefty profit to a local mill.. and does he have friends at the mill, and how much is the mill profiting from all those mature trees that they got their hands on. Out here quite a few small mills are always begging for land owners to sell off prime trees so that they can keep their mills open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #34 October 31, 2011 set some boobie traps in the forest scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #35 October 31, 2011 QuoteIt would be interesting to know what he did with the logs. If memory serves.. many of the trees, especially the hardwoods like mature maples and oaks have quite a bit of value in that part of the country and fide their way into specialty wood shops for furniture production for VERY expensive pieces that end up in high end stores. Were they sold off at a nice hefty profit to a local mill.. and does he have friends at the mill, and how much is the mill profiting from all those mature trees that they got their hands on. It's interesting to wonder, but in terms of a civil suit, the lumber value of the trees is not relevant as the trees (and land) were not purchased for the purpose of harvesting the lumber. The trees were always intended to be a feature of the land, and to provide privacy and 'ambiance' to the land. The damages in this case are not the loss of revenue from the harvested trees, it's the loss of value and functionality to the land they bought due to removal of the natural features. Forget the price of the cut trees, what they should be interested in the price of replacing the live, mature trees, that's what it will take to make the OP 'whole' again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #36 October 31, 2011 Quoterather than making a good faith offer to settle, nor any other recourse for his responsibility, he's trying to put it on the realty agency. It makes no difference to me what, if any, they relayed during their purchasing transaction...it had nothing to do with us. Dumbass did the damage, held the chain saw & did the dirty deeds Yes, and the key thing to keep in mind is that the offender was put on notice when you established the 'lot lines' and called to inform him that you thought he was on your land. Even if the realtor gave him reason to believe that it was his land, once you put him on notice that it was not, it was his duty to investigate the matter before cutting further trees. Now if the realtor did steer him wrong, you may have a case against them for the damages done to your land before you put the offender on notice, but anything beyond your notification falls squarely on the 'logger'. One other point, you mentioned the DA upthread, and if he does bring charges, a conviction in a criminal case makes a civil case a slam dunk. The civil case goes from 'did they do it' to 'they did it, how much is it worth' based on the criminal conviction. Even if the DA cannot make a case, or doesn't even bring charges, you're not sunk. There is a much higher standard of proof in a criminal case than a civil case. Just because a DA cannot win (or doesn't think they can) in a criminal case, you still might be able to prove your case in a civil trial. Based on everything you've said thus far, I would think that you should have no problem finding a lawyer to take your case. It's clear the guy has done you wrong, and it appears that he has some assets to speak of, and generally those two things will make a lawyer sit up and take notice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #37 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteIt would be interesting to know what he did with the logs. If memory serves.. many of the trees, especially the hardwoods like mature maples and oaks have quite a bit of value in that part of the country and fide their way into specialty wood shops for furniture production for VERY expensive pieces that end up in high end stores. Were they sold off at a nice hefty profit to a local mill.. and does he have friends at the mill, and how much is the mill profiting from all those mature trees that they got their hands on. It's interesting to wonder, but in terms of a civil suit, the lumber value of the trees is not relevant as the trees (and land) were not purchased for the purpose of harvesting the lumber. The trees were always intended to be a feature of the land, and to provide privacy and 'ambiance' to the land. The damages in this case are not the loss of revenue from the harvested trees, it's the loss of value and functionality to the land they bought due to removal of the natural features. Forget the price of the cut trees, what they should be interested in the price of replacing the live, mature trees, that's what it will take to make the OP 'whole' again. I would lay odds there was certainly a LARGE financial component of the culprit to stealing those logs off of someone elses property if they could pretend it was just a "mistake". I certainly value the intrinsic value of the trees on my property for their shade and the wildlife habitat they create far more than what I could get if I took them all down. I was REALLLLY pissed then the power company took down several of my trees they saw as a hazard to their power lines... even though my trees were NOT under their lines nor would they have even come close to their lines since the lines are a good 50 feet higher than the trees were. How those assholes could managed to cut down trees within 20 feet of a watercourse.... just amazes me since if anyone else was to do that... the state and feds would be all over them like stink on poo poo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #38 October 31, 2011 To the last 3 posters...you're opinions are exactly how we feel & we why we will stand firm on this. We wanted the trees as they were. It's the major reason we bought the land ! It's also curious where so much of the cuts of oak, pine, birch & maples have gone, though some cut logs are stacked neatly throughout. He had to have had help...110'x 220' of very thick woods, cut down in 2 days . An estimate of trees down calculated by this formula per DNR & US Foresrty Dept. (Also, per a chart of values per species= $97- $350 each.) No. of trees on an aver sq. yd. ( approx. 1 per sq. yd) = approx. loss of total trees per the lot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #39 October 31, 2011 Quote To the last 3 posters...you're opinions are exactly how we feel & we why we will stand firm on this. We wanted the trees as they were. It's the major reason we bought the land ! It's also curious where so much of the cuts of oak, pine, birch & maples have gone, though some cut logs are stacked neatly throughout. He had to have had help...110'x 220' of very thick woods, cut down in 2 days . An estimate of trees down calculated by this formula per DNR & US Foresrty Dept. (Also, per a chart of values per species= $97- $350 each.) No. of trees on an aver sq. yd. ( approx. 1 per sq. yd) = approx. loss of total trees per the lot. Find out which mill the logs went to as soon as you can... and I would say that is a low ball value for mature hardwood trees.. although for pine I can buy it. Please note how much a board foot ( 1" x 12" x 12" of wood actually goes for.. Is the mill owner complicit. http://www.woodshedlumber.com/roughsawn.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #40 November 1, 2011 I'm so hoping the US Forestry Rangers & DNR will be thorough & get on top of that... but will also do my own detective work, as well. I did find out today, due to both culprit land owners living in 2 different states, & the violations took place in another, as well as, a different county from where we reside...if charges are filed, the case will be heard in Federal Court Thanks for your advice..it is very helpful ! SKYDIVERS ROCK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baronn 111 #41 November 1, 2011 As a former logger(in Michigan) this is known as timber trespassing. There are laws against this and fines have been levied. I never crossed that path and was always very careful to avoid this situation. A decent attorney should be able to stop this immidiately and bring an action for damages. Seems a laydown to me based on what you have said so far. Good luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #42 November 1, 2011 I'm not real big on anyone stealing from me...EVER again & will pursue to whatever level I need * see recent post to another thread * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #43 November 10, 2011 Thank you ! Update: Attorney retained for civil litigation from a firm other than presiding county where land is owned. Side benefit... her best friend growing up is married to the son of our county's only judge hearing these cases & she seems to know her way around these cases, well. We've gotten greedy now due to jerk off's failure to step up & his ( their) efforts to skate, so going for full restitution w/damages. Sheriff's Dept. concluded their report & turned over to DA to include 3 Felonies, for timber theft per DNR & US Forest Dept. Stats, criminal & willful damage to property & criminal trespass, due to his removing the logged boundary markers & survey post established. All 4 landowners registered on their deed will be included in all legal pursuits. ( 2 sisters & their husband's...wouldn't want to be sitting at their Thanksgiving table ) We're seeking restitution for a number of punitive remedies through the criminal case as well, per attorney's advice, in the event he ( they) file bankruptcy. A private Forestry Consulting Agency was retained to determine stumpage value. Per WI. Stats., once that is determined, out of pocket attorney fees are then waived, & will be included in claim against the Defendant. The Forester will be taking a look at the damages tomorrow & will also determine value of wood removed & restoration costs, so as to seek 2-4x the value per tree in punitive amounts. He will turn over his reports to the DA & our attorny. Professional tree service was contacted to determine value of trees per species to the area: Evergreen species having life of 50 years = $20/ft Shade trees w/ 20-30 year life = $12-16/in. Hired a new "certified" survey done, which concluded our land boundaries & his ( theirs) is consistent to the original & confirmed he ( they) did us wrong ! Our out of pocket costs since destruction of our land complaint filed 10/28 to date = $3000 It is likely mediation will be ordered. If neither Party can come to terms, looking at 1 -3 years before it is resolved. No doubt forfeitures will be costly, so it may be likely he ( they) will be ordered to pay an enormous amount, in addition to ours & their, attorney fees, court costs, yadayada. All the dumbasses had to do was call us . Good news: We got a temporary camper moved in & electrical service installed on 1/2 the land he left us. The remaining 1/2 is still full of their debris & downed trees. We've been ordered to leave it alone until all investigators have concluded their business on it. The rest is now a waiting game Hopefully we can continue our plans to start the build & get well /septic in next spring... Otherwise, it looks like it'll be the Tin Can cabin, a porta potty, garden hose & sponge baths... for us in the mean time. Regardless, we ARE moving there permanently then...we both have been offered fulltime DZ Staff positions in the area & commuting 7 hrs. one way is out of the question ~ SKYDIVERS ROCK ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soberamprat 0 #44 November 10, 2011 When you come across a stack of cut log that were taken off your land, go out with hammer and nails in hand and fill them with nails making then worthless to the mill. Just a thought. http://www.swoopstudios.com/videos/videos-rex.php Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #45 November 10, 2011 Quote When you come across a stack of cut log that were taken off your land, go out with hammer and nails in hand and fill them with nails making then worthless to the mill. Just a thought. One Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #46 November 10, 2011 You are NOT being greedy - you are going after your dues. best wishes. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #47 November 10, 2011 Way to get going on this. Sorry it's having to happen at all, but it's YOUR land, and you should do everything you must to protect your property and your rights. Good luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #48 November 10, 2011 Awesome. now quit posting about it online. I would love to portray you as greedy by opposing counsel. /hate lawyers //best of luck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #49 November 10, 2011 Good effort and thanks for the update -but- delete it and write up the Clif notes without the inflammatory remarks. Good luck and patience. jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoogeyMan 0 #50 November 10, 2011 Congratz..... Lawyering up was/is the very best way to deal with the situation. Looks like you will do just fine. Disregard all the humorous/ joke/ non-serious posts about spiking logs and booby traps. You want to be pure as the driven snow from now on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
