theonlyski 8 #1 November 5, 2012 Use them! http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/05/14942417-duck-home-video-shows-plane-hitting-top-of-suv?lite ETA: Yes, I'm aware that the truck wasn't on the taxiway. "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 21 #2 November 5, 2012 QuoteHold short lines - Use them! http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/05/14942417-duck-home-video-shows-plane-hitting-top-of-suv?lite That is a bad piece of luck for both parties for sure. You don't usually think of "see and avoid" with one vehicle on the ground and one in the air. There are "displaced threshold" markings on both ends of the runway due to roads being close, and those are supposed to tell the pilots to not to land close to the end of the runway, which should ideally keep that kind of thing from happening. I'm thinking that some "yield to landing aircraft" signs for the roads would be a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CarpeDiem3 0 #3 November 5, 2012 Yikes! That runway is 3,500' long - the pilot really didn't need to stick it that short on his approach. And you would think he would see that vehicle coming and make sure he cleared it. It's a good thing it wasn't a tall box truck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #4 November 5, 2012 QuoteI'm thinking that some "yield to landing aircraft" signs for the roads would be a good idea. They have those at Pope AFB. You really don't want to be putting along in your Yugo when a C-5 is on short final. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #5 November 5, 2012 Well he seems to have made a mistake vis a vis the offset markings, but I don't think it is reasonable for him to be expected to have seen the vehicle. Hard to believe there isn't a yield, or even a stop sign. If there wasn't I think the pilot might be on the hook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CarpeDiem3 0 #6 November 5, 2012 QuoteI don't think it is reasonable for him to be expected to have seen the vehicle. It is easier for the pilot to see ground vehicles, then for the ground vehicle drivers to see approaching aircraft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,590 #7 November 5, 2012 I used to jump at a DZ with a short sod runway right up to the edge of a road. The road had huge "NO PARKING BETWEEN SIGNS - LANDING AIRCRAFT" signs, and yet idiots would park between the signs. One of our pilots had a personal goal to put tire tracks on a car. Well, he never succeeded in that, but he did leave a car's radio antenna whipping back and forth on landing. The driver hurriedly moved his car. "There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wolfriverjoe 1,523 #8 November 5, 2012 There are "Low Flying Airplanes Cross Here" on the highway at both my current and former DZs. The end of the runway is close enough that the plane is pretty low as it crosses for landing. Maybe 25-50' up. And I have quite a few takeoffs and landings out of another local airport, Brennand in Neenah (79C). The standard procedure was to check the road for traffic on short final. I had a go-around once because of a tractor pulling a hay wagon, and another instructor actually hit a dump truck. We never did quite figure out how he missed seeing it. YouTube of landing there. You can see how close the end of the runway is to the road. I was there before they put in the pavement and the displaced threshold. We used to aim to touch down right about where the pavement starts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFghlV-HjfA"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CSpenceFLY 1 #9 November 6, 2012 QuoteYikes! That runway is 3,500' long - the pilot really didn't need to stick it that short on his approach. And you would think he would see that vehicle coming and make sure he cleared it. It's a good thing it wasn't a tall box truck! It was a student pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tuna-Salad 0 #10 November 6, 2012 I LOVE the media... "the plane nose dives into the ground"Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #11 November 6, 2012 QuoteHard to believe there isn't a yield, or even a stop sign. If there wasn't I think the pilot might be on the hook Have a look at the north end of the runway. The road is a good 10 or 20 ft from the edge of the tarmac, so unless a guy is trying to drop the mains right on the edge, there should be enough space. In reality, look at the displaced threshold lines, those are the arrows that point toward a solid white line across the runway, about 250 from the 'end'. Those lines are there for a reason, like when an obstacle doesn't allow for a low apporach to that end of the runway. Buildings, power lines, and roads are good reasons to displace the threshold. The runway still extends to all the way down, but this is for the purpose of allowing a longer take-off roll when departing from than end, but in terms of landings, the end of the runway short of the displaced threshold is a 'no fly' zone, and nobody should be wheels down in that zone. It's like a rig with or without an AAD. Without an AAD, you could throw your main PC at 1000ft and not expect a two out. With an AAD, you're almost guaranteed a two-out if you throw at 1k ft. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from throwing out at 1k with an AAD, you can phyically freefall to 1k and then deploy, it's just not going to work out in your favor. Ditto with landing short of the displaced threshhold. Is there runway surface there? Yes. Can you fly right down and plant the mains on it? Maybe sometimes, but you can't claim to be 'surprised' when it doesn't work out. Edit to add - I tried twice to link to a google map of the airport in question, but neither of them worked. Map ti yourself, it's the Northwest Regional Airport in Roanoke TX, and the 'incident' happened at the north end of the runway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 897 #12 November 6, 2012 Cricky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dean358 0 #13 November 6, 2012 Geez guys, how about a little sympathy here? As Spence pointed out, this was a student pilot and he was, obviously, making a poor approach. I'm guessing that he was so nervous he ended up being totally focused on just getting the damn thing on the ground at the expense of situational awareness. Thankfully neither the pilot nor the occupants of the SUV ended up being "dead right."www.wci.nyc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #14 November 6, 2012 QuoteGeez guys, how about a little sympathy here? As Spence pointed out, this was a student pilot and he was, obviously, making a poor approach. I'm guessing that he was so nervous he ended up being totally focused on just getting the damn thing on the ground at the expense of situational awareness. Thankfully neither the pilot nor the occupants of the SUV ended up being "dead right." WELL, surely it depends on whether it was his home airport or if he was on a X-country or practising at an unfamiliar airport. If his home airport he should have been well aware that there was a road at the end of the runway, and a displaced threshhold. When I was a student pilot back in the dark ages my instructor wanted me to cross the threshhold at 50', to clear the hypothetical FAA obstacle.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #15 November 6, 2012 A student pilot flying solo is in command of that aircraft. [ur]lhttp://www.airnav.com/airport/52F[/url] Look at this. A displaced threshhold is listed at 320 feet. There was a VASI for a 4.5 degree slope (I'm used to a 3.0 degree slope). That dude was LOW, looking to land before the threshhold with a VASI telling him he's low. Is a 4.5 degree slope a little on the high end? Or am I just used to 3.0 flying around here? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #16 November 6, 2012 QuoteWhen I was a student pilot back in the dark ages my instructor wanted me to cross the threshhold at 50', to clear the hypothetical FAA obstacle. I had heard Orville was a real stickler. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CarpeDiem3 0 #17 November 6, 2012 QuoteQuoteWhen I was a student pilot back in the dark ages my instructor wanted me to cross the threshhold at 50', to clear the hypothetical FAA obstacle. I had heard Orville was a real stickler. Those sand dunes could really rise up and smite thee. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #18 November 6, 2012 QuoteA student pilot flying solo is in command of that aircraft. [ur]lhttp://www.airnav.com/airport/52F[/url] Look at this. A displaced threshhold is listed at 320 feet. There was a VASI for a 4.5 degree slope (I'm used to a 3.0 degree slope). That dude was LOW, looking to land before the threshhold with a VASI telling him he's low. Is a 4.5 degree slope a little on the high end? Or am I just used to 3.0 flying around here? A steeper glide slope is often used for obstacle clearance. Don't see many in the mid west but have seen them in hilly areas.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #19 November 6, 2012 Thanks. With a 4.5 glide slope, that guy was super low. I don't excuse the SUV driver at all, but if the pilot was on slope he would have had no problem clearing it. A few years ago, a plane tore the roof off of a truck on Herndon coming in too low at Sierra Sky Park here in Fresyes. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Sierra+Sky+Park,+CA&hl=en&ll=36.838545,-119.867642&spn=0.005023,0.006899&sll=36.785533,-119.794561&sspn=0.321703,0.441513&oq=sierra+sky+&t=h&hq=Sierra+Sky+Park,+CA&z=17 http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=6443808 My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites theonlyski 8 #20 November 10, 2012 Quote A student pilot flying solo is in command of that aircraft. [ur]lhttp://www.airnav.com/airport/52F[/url] Look at this. A displaced threshhold is listed at 320 feet. There was a VASI for a 4.5 degree slope (I'm used to a 3.0 degree slope). That dude was LOW, looking to land before the threshhold with a VASI telling him he's low. Is a 4.5 degree slope a little on the high end? Or am I just used to 3.0 flying around here? Here are some pictures of how the runway actually looks now. Appears the displaced threshold has been moved.Found these over on Vans Airforce. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=92811&page=5"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,590 #21 November 10, 2012 Quote Quote A student pilot flying solo is in command of that aircraft. [ur]lhttp://www.airnav.com/airport/52F[/url] Look at this. A displaced threshhold is listed at 320 feet. There was a VASI for a 4.5 degree slope (I'm used to a 3.0 degree slope). That dude was LOW, looking to land before the threshhold with a VASI telling him he's low. Is a 4.5 degree slope a little on the high end? Or am I just used to 3.0 flying around here? Here are some pictures of how the runway actually looks now. Appears the displaced threshold has been moved.Found these over on Vans Airforce. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=92811&page=5 From a post: "... you can see the yellow stop lines to the left and right on the road". Ugh, oh; Looks like someone's auto insurance might be paying for an airplane.Omigosh! From that thread, someone posted a different airport where the runway *is* the road! http://maps.google.com/maps?q=16+SONGBIRD+DRIVE+ROSHARON,+TX+77583&hl=en&ll=29.368422,-95.341083&spn=0.008995,0.009431&sll=38.83115,-105.545654&sspn=8.196395,9.656982&hnear=16+Song+Bird+Dr,+Rosharon,+Texas+77583&t=h&z=17"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites OHCHUTE 0 #22 November 11, 2012 The instructor let the student loose not having sufficient experience with go around proceedures, and applicable glide path training to avoid any obsticals including cars on the road intersecting the approach end of the runway. The FAA examiner will be reviewing the log book of the student in search of any applicable training received. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjumpenfool 2 #23 November 11, 2012 QuoteThe instructor let the student loose not having sufficient experience with go around proceedures, and applicable glide path training to avoid any obsticals including cars on the road intersecting the approach end of the runway. The FAA examiner will be reviewing the log book of the student in search of any applicable training received. Hmmmm? Looks like another "open canopy" incident?Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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CarpeDiem3 0 #3 November 5, 2012 Yikes! That runway is 3,500' long - the pilot really didn't need to stick it that short on his approach. And you would think he would see that vehicle coming and make sure he cleared it. It's a good thing it wasn't a tall box truck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #4 November 5, 2012 QuoteI'm thinking that some "yield to landing aircraft" signs for the roads would be a good idea. They have those at Pope AFB. You really don't want to be putting along in your Yugo when a C-5 is on short final. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #5 November 5, 2012 Well he seems to have made a mistake vis a vis the offset markings, but I don't think it is reasonable for him to be expected to have seen the vehicle. Hard to believe there isn't a yield, or even a stop sign. If there wasn't I think the pilot might be on the hook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem3 0 #6 November 5, 2012 QuoteI don't think it is reasonable for him to be expected to have seen the vehicle. It is easier for the pilot to see ground vehicles, then for the ground vehicle drivers to see approaching aircraft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #7 November 5, 2012 I used to jump at a DZ with a short sod runway right up to the edge of a road. The road had huge "NO PARKING BETWEEN SIGNS - LANDING AIRCRAFT" signs, and yet idiots would park between the signs. One of our pilots had a personal goal to put tire tracks on a car. Well, he never succeeded in that, but he did leave a car's radio antenna whipping back and forth on landing. The driver hurriedly moved his car. "There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #8 November 5, 2012 There are "Low Flying Airplanes Cross Here" on the highway at both my current and former DZs. The end of the runway is close enough that the plane is pretty low as it crosses for landing. Maybe 25-50' up. And I have quite a few takeoffs and landings out of another local airport, Brennand in Neenah (79C). The standard procedure was to check the road for traffic on short final. I had a go-around once because of a tractor pulling a hay wagon, and another instructor actually hit a dump truck. We never did quite figure out how he missed seeing it. YouTube of landing there. You can see how close the end of the runway is to the road. I was there before they put in the pavement and the displaced threshold. We used to aim to touch down right about where the pavement starts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFghlV-HjfA"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #9 November 6, 2012 QuoteYikes! That runway is 3,500' long - the pilot really didn't need to stick it that short on his approach. And you would think he would see that vehicle coming and make sure he cleared it. It's a good thing it wasn't a tall box truck! It was a student pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tuna-Salad 0 #10 November 6, 2012 I LOVE the media... "the plane nose dives into the ground"Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #11 November 6, 2012 QuoteHard to believe there isn't a yield, or even a stop sign. If there wasn't I think the pilot might be on the hook Have a look at the north end of the runway. The road is a good 10 or 20 ft from the edge of the tarmac, so unless a guy is trying to drop the mains right on the edge, there should be enough space. In reality, look at the displaced threshold lines, those are the arrows that point toward a solid white line across the runway, about 250 from the 'end'. Those lines are there for a reason, like when an obstacle doesn't allow for a low apporach to that end of the runway. Buildings, power lines, and roads are good reasons to displace the threshold. The runway still extends to all the way down, but this is for the purpose of allowing a longer take-off roll when departing from than end, but in terms of landings, the end of the runway short of the displaced threshold is a 'no fly' zone, and nobody should be wheels down in that zone. It's like a rig with or without an AAD. Without an AAD, you could throw your main PC at 1000ft and not expect a two out. With an AAD, you're almost guaranteed a two-out if you throw at 1k ft. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from throwing out at 1k with an AAD, you can phyically freefall to 1k and then deploy, it's just not going to work out in your favor. Ditto with landing short of the displaced threshhold. Is there runway surface there? Yes. Can you fly right down and plant the mains on it? Maybe sometimes, but you can't claim to be 'surprised' when it doesn't work out. Edit to add - I tried twice to link to a google map of the airport in question, but neither of them worked. Map ti yourself, it's the Northwest Regional Airport in Roanoke TX, and the 'incident' happened at the north end of the runway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dean358 0 #13 November 6, 2012 Geez guys, how about a little sympathy here? As Spence pointed out, this was a student pilot and he was, obviously, making a poor approach. I'm guessing that he was so nervous he ended up being totally focused on just getting the damn thing on the ground at the expense of situational awareness. Thankfully neither the pilot nor the occupants of the SUV ended up being "dead right."www.wci.nyc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #14 November 6, 2012 QuoteGeez guys, how about a little sympathy here? As Spence pointed out, this was a student pilot and he was, obviously, making a poor approach. I'm guessing that he was so nervous he ended up being totally focused on just getting the damn thing on the ground at the expense of situational awareness. Thankfully neither the pilot nor the occupants of the SUV ended up being "dead right." WELL, surely it depends on whether it was his home airport or if he was on a X-country or practising at an unfamiliar airport. If his home airport he should have been well aware that there was a road at the end of the runway, and a displaced threshhold. When I was a student pilot back in the dark ages my instructor wanted me to cross the threshhold at 50', to clear the hypothetical FAA obstacle.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #15 November 6, 2012 A student pilot flying solo is in command of that aircraft. [ur]lhttp://www.airnav.com/airport/52F[/url] Look at this. A displaced threshhold is listed at 320 feet. There was a VASI for a 4.5 degree slope (I'm used to a 3.0 degree slope). That dude was LOW, looking to land before the threshhold with a VASI telling him he's low. Is a 4.5 degree slope a little on the high end? Or am I just used to 3.0 flying around here? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #16 November 6, 2012 QuoteWhen I was a student pilot back in the dark ages my instructor wanted me to cross the threshhold at 50', to clear the hypothetical FAA obstacle. I had heard Orville was a real stickler. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem3 0 #17 November 6, 2012 QuoteQuoteWhen I was a student pilot back in the dark ages my instructor wanted me to cross the threshhold at 50', to clear the hypothetical FAA obstacle. I had heard Orville was a real stickler. Those sand dunes could really rise up and smite thee. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #18 November 6, 2012 QuoteA student pilot flying solo is in command of that aircraft. [ur]lhttp://www.airnav.com/airport/52F[/url] Look at this. A displaced threshhold is listed at 320 feet. There was a VASI for a 4.5 degree slope (I'm used to a 3.0 degree slope). That dude was LOW, looking to land before the threshhold with a VASI telling him he's low. Is a 4.5 degree slope a little on the high end? Or am I just used to 3.0 flying around here? A steeper glide slope is often used for obstacle clearance. Don't see many in the mid west but have seen them in hilly areas.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #19 November 6, 2012 Thanks. With a 4.5 glide slope, that guy was super low. I don't excuse the SUV driver at all, but if the pilot was on slope he would have had no problem clearing it. A few years ago, a plane tore the roof off of a truck on Herndon coming in too low at Sierra Sky Park here in Fresyes. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Sierra+Sky+Park,+CA&hl=en&ll=36.838545,-119.867642&spn=0.005023,0.006899&sll=36.785533,-119.794561&sspn=0.321703,0.441513&oq=sierra+sky+&t=h&hq=Sierra+Sky+Park,+CA&z=17 http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=6443808 My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #20 November 10, 2012 Quote A student pilot flying solo is in command of that aircraft. [ur]lhttp://www.airnav.com/airport/52F[/url] Look at this. A displaced threshhold is listed at 320 feet. There was a VASI for a 4.5 degree slope (I'm used to a 3.0 degree slope). That dude was LOW, looking to land before the threshhold with a VASI telling him he's low. Is a 4.5 degree slope a little on the high end? Or am I just used to 3.0 flying around here? Here are some pictures of how the runway actually looks now. Appears the displaced threshold has been moved.Found these over on Vans Airforce. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=92811&page=5"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #21 November 10, 2012 Quote Quote A student pilot flying solo is in command of that aircraft. [ur]lhttp://www.airnav.com/airport/52F[/url] Look at this. A displaced threshhold is listed at 320 feet. There was a VASI for a 4.5 degree slope (I'm used to a 3.0 degree slope). That dude was LOW, looking to land before the threshhold with a VASI telling him he's low. Is a 4.5 degree slope a little on the high end? Or am I just used to 3.0 flying around here? Here are some pictures of how the runway actually looks now. Appears the displaced threshold has been moved.Found these over on Vans Airforce. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=92811&page=5 From a post: "... you can see the yellow stop lines to the left and right on the road". Ugh, oh; Looks like someone's auto insurance might be paying for an airplane.Omigosh! From that thread, someone posted a different airport where the runway *is* the road! http://maps.google.com/maps?q=16+SONGBIRD+DRIVE+ROSHARON,+TX+77583&hl=en&ll=29.368422,-95.341083&spn=0.008995,0.009431&sll=38.83115,-105.545654&sspn=8.196395,9.656982&hnear=16+Song+Bird+Dr,+Rosharon,+Texas+77583&t=h&z=17"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OHCHUTE 0 #22 November 11, 2012 The instructor let the student loose not having sufficient experience with go around proceedures, and applicable glide path training to avoid any obsticals including cars on the road intersecting the approach end of the runway. The FAA examiner will be reviewing the log book of the student in search of any applicable training received. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #23 November 11, 2012 QuoteThe instructor let the student loose not having sufficient experience with go around proceedures, and applicable glide path training to avoid any obsticals including cars on the road intersecting the approach end of the runway. The FAA examiner will be reviewing the log book of the student in search of any applicable training received. Hmmmm? Looks like another "open canopy" incident?Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
