wolfriverjoe 1,523 #101 October 18, 2010 QuoteFirst off thoughts and prayers to the injured young lady!! No matter what the circumstance she deserves our support in a speedy recovery. Now to the conversation of waivers for under 18, in every sport that my child has played since she was 4 I have had to sign a waiver for her to participate. Cheerleading is one of the most dangerous sports around, but we routinely sign 5-17 y/o waivers. These are not required tasks but elective sports. Football leagues are the same, soccer, rugby etc. etc, so why is skydiving any different? Because those other activities have insurance. And those insurance companies have both lawyers to defend against a lawsuit and the money to pay a settlement. If someone gets hurt, and an ambulance chaser thinks he can win a lawsuit despite the waiver, the insurance company decides if it is worth fighting the suit, or offers an out of court settlement. The school district (for scholastic activities) or amusement park or gokart track or whatever simply pays the insurance bill and goes on with business as normal (maybe paying a higher premium, maybe not). For a DZ there is a simple choice. Sell everything you own to fight the lawsuit and hope the clause in the waiver that says the jumper pays all the DZ's legal bills stands up, or sell everything you own to pay the settlement. It's the legal climate in the US. Right or wrong (that's SC material) it is the reality. Whether or not minors are physically, mentally, emotionally capable and mature enough to jump safely doesn't matter (some are, some aren't). At my DZ, the lawyer who wrote the waiver said that it wouldn't protect us if we let minors jump. And that he couldn't (and woudn't ) defend us if we let them. So we don't. Period."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #102 October 18, 2010 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 Although some will never understand this. It's not like we "allow" this legal perspective, more to the point, we are forced to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #103 October 19, 2010 It took 101 posts to get to the bottom line. Good stuff.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #104 October 19, 2010 Quote It took 101 posts to get to the bottom line. Good stuff. I think the bottom line is its pretty pathetic and sad that people need to be divided into two camps about things like this as the US in indeed not the land of the free and stupid laws and fears stop people living a normal life.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #105 October 19, 2010 Quote Quote It took 101 posts to get to the bottom line. Good stuff. I think the bottom line is its pretty pathetic and sad that people need to be divided into two camps about things like this as the US is indeed not the land of the free and stupid laws and fears stop people living a normal life. I'm not sure what you mean about this. There aren't any laws about adults doing these things. There really aren't any laws preventing kids doing this. It's just the legal climate that puts serious risk onto anyone who allows kids to participate in dangerous activites. There are pluses and minuses to having that legal climate, but that is really a topic for SC. If a place can't get insurance coverage to proctect themselves, then kids almost certainly aren't going to be allowed. Lots of activites can get that coverage, and kids can participate. Contact sports (football, basketball hand-egg); Non-contact, high risk stuff (like gymnastics or cheerleading); motorsports (go-karts, motorcycles and ATVs), Horseback activites (both the "English" riding and jumping and "Western" rodeo type stuff) are only a few of the things that they do. Skydiving is one of the few that there isn't any insurance coverage available for, and so kids can't do it, except at the rare DZ that is willing to take the risk."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #106 October 19, 2010 Well that depends on your definition of a kid (or the laws definition) Maybe I see it different as i come from a country where 16 is the norm to sign your life away.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #107 October 19, 2010 Quote Well that depends on your definition of a kid (or the laws definition) Maybe I see it different as i come from a country where 16 is the norm to sign your life away. ...where ya livin' now? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #108 October 19, 2010 Quote It took 101 posts to get to the bottom line. Good stuff. Ditto! Wish this forum had a "thumbs up" emoticon, but this will do. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #109 October 19, 2010 What bottom line? I still haven't seen post-1 yet, salient at all to WHAT EVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED HERE. - Have you? Of course all the "channel noise" about being 17, or 35 - or whatever age, at this point has no doubt drown it all out. Did she release 1 toggle herself, and not the other one? Have a "toggle fire", and not respond to it? Some sort of other equipment issue? Or maybe it was no equipment issue at all of any sort, and it was all some sort of "pilot error" (or 'freaking-out" maybe, if you want to believe it is all totally just attributable to her being just a babbling hapless 17yr old as the root cause)? If I've missed it somewhere in these total of 100+ some-odd posts, my apologies. Otherwise, I've not seen any info come out yet at all, as to what - has actually happened here. Let alone a "bottom line". Anyone have any REAL info or details forthcoming out of this incident?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #110 October 19, 2010 Wasn't it posted that one toggle was released? I got the impression it was a toggle fire that wasn't dealt with properly. Please don't make me look for it.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #111 October 19, 2010 No worries - I've now asked directly in the incidents forum as well. That is what is being SPECULATED - but no, unfortunately as of right now even still - noting definitive. coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #112 October 19, 2010 I did my best to answer your question in the other thread. Till the young lady tells us what her hands did or did not do we wont KNOW. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #113 October 20, 2010 QuoteWhat bottom line? Bottom line on the discussion about age limits. You may have noted that I was responding to wolfriverjoe. You may have noticed that the topic of the thread is age limits. Glad you found the incidents forum.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anthonyfellows 0 #114 December 17, 2010 How is it any more of a liability than an 18 year old signing his/her own waiver? It seems the legal guardians of the 17 year old have the right to sign the document for her, so what is the difference here? Both scenarios include a signed waiver, by someone with the proper legal authority to do so. If someone is going to file a lawsuit here, the 17 year old needs to file a lawsuit against her parents for allowing her to take part in a sport that involves risk of serious injury or death.Serious relationships turn into work after a few weeks and I already got a fucking job :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ H.A.F. = Hard As Fuck ... Goddamn Amateurs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #115 December 17, 2010 Geez guy...the has been answered numerous times already. Please read the thread. If you don't understand the why's of the law, talk to a legal beagle in your state. If you don't like the why's of the law, talk to your state representatives.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anthonyfellows 0 #116 December 17, 2010 Personally I do not give a shit, because it will never apply to me. I'm not going to waste my time reading the several pages that this thread consists of to find out why the law is the way it is from individuals who have not been to law school. However, in the interest of speaking on the subject of the law and what makes sense, I believe that my post was accurate in terms of how things should be done. It isn't like this is something that requires a great deal of brain power to figure out. 18 years old - Can sign the waiver. 17 years old - Cannot sign the waiver, but the legal guardians of that person can sign the waiver in lieu of the 17 year old. Why does it make sense for the parents of a 17 year old skydiver to sue a drop zone over an incident involving their 17 year old child, if those parents signed a waiver in lieu of the 17 year old and cannot prove negligence on the part of a person who is employed by that drop zone that was directly or indirectly involved in the incident? The answer to that question is very simple. It does not make sense. My post was meant to make a point in response to the OP, not to question how the law reads on this specific subject. Edited to add ... Thank you and have a good day sir!Serious relationships turn into work after a few weeks and I already got a fucking job :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ H.A.F. = Hard As Fuck ... Goddamn Amateurs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #117 December 17, 2010 What you wish the law shopuld say is irrelevant. 17 year olds can not sign a valid waiver. And parents or legal guardians cannot bind a 17 year old. Simply stated, a waiver signed by parents or guardians for a 17 year old is worthless. whether you wish it were so or not. And, yes, I have graduated from law school and been engaged in the practice of law for 25 years.Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #118 December 17, 2010 Quote17 years old - Cannot sign the waiver, but the legal guardians of that person can sign the waiver in lieu of the 17 year old. That seems to be an assumption on your part, and as many assumptions are, it's wrong.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #119 December 17, 2010 poor you! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #120 December 17, 2010 Hey, it pays for my skydiving and all my cool gear. No apologies from me.Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #121 December 17, 2010 Quote Hey, it pays for my skydiving and all my cool gear. No apologies from me. i was being a little sarcastic.. honestly, if i'd live in the states, i would of become a laywer.. no apologies, i work in the nuclear field, most people wouldnt do that, but hey, it pays PRETTY well.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #122 December 17, 2010 IF lawyering didn't pay so well, I wouldn't be doing it, believe me. Stick with Nuclear Engineering. Much less boring, I am sure.Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #123 December 17, 2010 Quote IF lawyering didn't pay so well, I wouldn't be doing it, believe me. Stick with Nuclear Engineering. Much less boring, I am sure. i wouldnt say so.. every job has it's drawbacks! enjoy your day, i'm celebrating my B-DAY! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #124 December 17, 2010 Happy Birthday!Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #125 December 17, 2010 thank you! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
