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2 out question (scary video)

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Hi :)
Here is the very disturbing video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3VisRC3X9U&feature=player_embedded

And my question: do you see how the instructor uses front riser input on the main to seperate the 2 out? Does that seem like a good idea? Looks like he is draging his main PC all over his reserve. Is this something they used to teach?

Thank you.

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I can tell you it isn't something they teach. I aslo want to know if this is a good idea.

But what the f*** where they thinking. I saw the instructor look at the ground and the student do some alti-checks and suddenly no more altitude awareness while the instructor was still giving signs. A double 2-out opening this close to one another is crazy.

A big f***up by the instructor. I would have some words with this guy if it where my DZ.
Blue skies!

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The instructor should have tracked off, checked over his shoulder (to see if the student had followed), and deployed at 3.5, that's what he was trained to do. This emergency procedure should/would have cued the student to do the same.

As far as controlling the canopies, USPA doctrine (SIM 5.1) teaches that in a stable bi-plane, the toggles or rear risers of the front canopy should be used to steer canopies. The rear canopy's toggles should remain stowed. Inputs should be minimal.

I don't believe that this instructor has had a two-out before, so it's anyone's guess as to why he used front risers vs toggles on the forward canopy. Habit?

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It looked to me as if he wanted to create a downplane by pulling the frontriser of the main so he could then cutaway the main.

I just don't think this is good reaction at that altitude.



I agree. That's what he did. Not something I would do.
I did notice that the "student" landed his stable side-by-side.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Acording to video description, student has under 50 jumps. Was jumping only the minimum required to keep current, so was basicly as uncurrent as you can be to still jump at his level. Altimeter stuck at 10.5k, realized this late in the dive and became confused.

It does seem to me the instructor is attemting to create a down plane at zero altitude so he can cutaway.

Also, isnt it SOP (at least for the instructor) to go straight to reserve pulling this low? Of course two out is better then none, and pulling the main should have more muscle memory to it, so I can see how that would happen.

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It looked to me as if he wanted to create a downplane by pulling the frontriser of the main so he could then cutaway the main.

I just don't think this is good reaction at that altitude.



looked like he had plenty of time to me. I would do the same with the same altitude and "large" canopies. (safely separate canopies and cutaway main, not anywhere near a "downplane" in that incident)

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I can tell you it isn't something they teach. I aslo want to know if this is a good idea.

But what the f*** where they thinking. I saw the instructor look at the ground and the student do some alti-checks and suddenly no more altitude awareness while the instructor was still giving signs. A double 2-out opening this close to one another is crazy.

A big f***up by the instructor. I would have some words with this guy if it where my DZ.



Well technically the other jumper is not a student so the "instructor" in this case is not to blame for the other guy losing altitude awarness
Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

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Well, Technically that is not correct. That was re-currency jump being conducted under the DIRECT supervision of an Instructor. The Instructor is responsible till he signs off on the jump after its debrief is completed.

There is a sequence for Instructors and Coaches to use at the bottom end of a skydive, typically referred to as "The Bottom End Sequence". The Instructor in this video did not use it.

There is also a standard for a Student to use in the event of a loss of altitude awareness, once he realized his alti was stuck he should have waved off and deployed.

Why he did not respond to the pull signal is odd, but he and the Instructor can attest to the "Why's" of their actions them selves.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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To my Newb eyes. It looked like the instructor purposely separated the main from the reserve, in order to safely chop it. I remember seeing, on USPA's site, I believe. A recommendation not to chop a main in a stable biplane. The explanation given was that the main's risers could possibly get caught up in the reserve, & collapse it. I think it was posted on their safety quiz.

USPA states biplanes are usually stable. That you should land them w/gentle steering inputs on the main's rear risers. If they're so stable? What makes them sometimes go into a downplane?

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Well, Technically that is not correct. That was re-currency jump being conducted under the DIRECT supervision of an Instructor. The Instructor is responsible till he signs off on the jump after its debrief is completed.

There is a sequence for Instructors and Coaches to use at the bottom end of a skydive, typically referred to as "The Bottom End Sequence". The Instructor in this video did not use it.

There is also a standard for a Student to use in the event of a loss of altitude awareness, once he realized his alti was stuck he should have waved off and deployed.

Why he did not respond to the pull signal is odd, but he and the Instructor can attest to the "Why's" of their actions them selves.

Matt



thanks for clarifying
Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

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A couch does not give a pull sign, The only way we can tell a student to deploy is to turn and track followed by deployment of our canopy, I didn't see any practice touches on top, this is something any good instructor couch or AFF would want to see first off on a recurrence.. IMHO this was a very bad example of an instructional rating period..
The end result is directly connected to the effort applied

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That was interesting :P

Anyone can give a pull signal. Doesn't mean it's done appropriately. That video was a perfect example.

That video leads me to believe it was not an AFF instructor. If indeed it was an AFF instructor, he did very poorly. Any reasonable instructor knows how to get someones attention or just take over. Most coaches should not do re-currency dives. People who know how to deal with real students should do recurrency dives. Most recurrency dives work out just fine, but some don't.

Any time I do a recurrency dive, I still fly with the mindset I may actually need to use some AFF skills on top of basic coaching. 2 weeks ago I had to stop a full on spin. Had He done a solo he'd have either spun till he passed out or pulled in a rapid spin at 12,500 feet.

Edit: BTW, I didn't see anything particularly wrong with the canopy control choices after the fact. They just shouldn't have been necessary. If the canopies were flying ok together, chances are I would have landed them, maybe not though.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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A couch does not give a pull sign

Well, If my couch starts giving me the pull sign, I'm going to lay off the bottle for a little while :D;)

***The only way we can tell a student to deploy is to turn and track followed by deployment of our canopy, I didn't see any practice touches on top, this is something any good instructor couch or AFF would want to see first off on a recurrence.. IMHO this was a very bad example of an instructional rating period..



When I got my coach card, my instructor told me that a coach CAN give a pull signal to a 'student' if there was an unsafe condition that existed and you need to end the skydive RIGHT NOW... If you see your 'students' bridle coming out and flapping around... do you:
a) you wave off, and watch them track trailing a bridle... possibly getting a horseshoe
b) give him the pull signal and get that problem resolved now?

For other things (bad spot, high winds) you should have instructed your student that if (s)he sees you wave off, they should turn, track and pull, and if they see you pull in place, they should pull ASAP. Thats part of the pre-jump training.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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A couch does not give a pull sign, The only way we can tell a student to deploy is to turn and track followed by deployment of our canopy



I think you're confusing giving a pull sign with pulling for the student. Coaches don't pull for students, but there's nothing wrong with a pull signal prior to turning and tracking to deploy.
Owned by Remi #?

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A couch does not give a pull sign

Well, If my couch starts giving me the pull sign, I'm going to lay off the bottle for a little while :D;)

***The only way we can tell a student to deploy is to turn and track followed by deployment of our canopy, I didn't see any practice touches on top, this is something any good instructor couch or AFF would want to see first off on a recurrence.. IMHO this was a very bad example of an instructional rating period..



When I got my coach card, my instructor told me that a coach CAN give a pull signal to a 'student' if there was an unsafe condition that existed and you need to end the skydive RIGHT NOW... If you see your 'students' bridle coming out and flapping around... do you:
a) you wave off, and watch them track trailing a bridle... possibly getting a horseshoe
b) give him the pull signal and get that problem resolved now?

For other things (bad spot, high winds) you should have instructed your student that if (s)he sees you wave off, they should turn, track and pull, and if they see you pull in place, they should pull ASAP. Thats part of the pre-jump training.


I have given the "Pull" signal to an Up-Jumper who had over 1000 jumps at the time. He had a container open after a funneled exit in a 5 way. The other 4 of us all stopped and stared a second and then myself and another jumper moved in front of him a each gave him the pull signal. The other two started tracking. The dude with the potential horse shoe pulled, he had massive line twists but, under a 220 foot 7 cell and at 9000+ feet, he had plenty of time to deal with it.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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I have given the "Pull" signal to an Up-Jumper who had over 1000 jumps at the time. He had a container



Which leads to the question: I wonder how many jumpers actually know the Pull signal?

Or novice jumpers and coaches?

If someone was AFF/PFF trained, or an instructor for such programs, yes they'll know it. Depending on the DZ, that may be most people or very few people.

If it isn't commonly known, giving a big waveoff (and/or pulling) may be the way to get someone's attention. For someone without an AFF background, getting pointed at may not have much effect.

I don't know what everyone else thinks, but for many, I think finger pointing may be interpreted as "look at that", as in "there's something wrong -- check your gear".

(I notice the pointing Pull signal is really only in the USPA SIM appendix, and isn't in the Canadian PIM 2A, where the hand signals covered are more for RW coaching in general.)

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Lots of interesting things here.

1.

Quote

do you see how the instructor uses front riser input on the main to seperate the 2 out? Does that seem like a good idea? Looks like he is draging his main PC all over his reserve. Is this something they used to teach?



No if it is a stable biplane, it is recommended to leave them alone. If it is a stable side by side it is recommended to leave them alone OR disconnect the RSL and cut it away (Jumpers choice).

If it is unstable get rid of the main.

(SIM section 5.)

It also goes into detail on what canopy to unstow the brakes on.... Personally, I am not going to touch anything as long as it remains stable. If it is stable, I am not touching a thing unless I am going to land somewhere very bad.

To *me* it looks like he grabbed his right rear riser. to split the canopy's.

2.
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Why didn't he just deploy after a couple of unsuccessful attempts?



Good question. The reason is because the "Instructor" in this case got so wrapped up trying to get the student to pull that he ALSO lost track of altitude. And that can be very easy to do in this situation.

a) I hope the "instructor" here was not AFF rated. An AFF rated instructor should stop trying to signal the student and physically deploy the student at an altitude that the Instructor can have a normal opening. For me, I start giving pull signals AT the assigned pull altitude and I own your pilot chute -1k from that altitude. If I can't get to you (not happened yet), I am going to turn and track at an altitude that will let me get away and deploy cleanly, around 2500 feet. After 2500 feet, I am going to track for a few seconds and deploy.... It is you and me till it is you OR me.;)

b) If it was a coach... the coach should have started tracking at the assigned altitude.

In both cases when the "I" turns and tracks, the student should get the point and deploy. It is the last signal you can give the student.

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Also, isnt it SOP (at least for the instructor) to go straight to reserve pulling this low?



Yes, but having been that low I can tell you that you will almost instinctively go for a main. I had ~300 jumps and found myself VERY low. I had thrown a main 300 times and only pulled the reserve in training. While my mind said "RESERVE!!!" my right hand had already thrown the main and it was deploying before I could tell my left hand to reach for the silver handle. No AAD, or it would have been a double out.

4.
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A couch does not give a pull sign



Anyone can give, and should give, a pull signal if they see a problem. I gave it to people before I had an AFF rating.

5.
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Which leads to the question: I wonder how many jumpers actually know the Pull signal?



I am sure most people know it.... the question is will they know it when given it in freefall? If you walked up to them on the ground when everything is calm and relaxed and asked them what that signal was... I bet they would answer correctly. The issue is when they are in freefall what will they do?

Two story's:

1. My buddy on a three way had his main tray open and the main bag was dancing around behind him. #2 started waiving at him and mocking a pull... I looked him dead in the eyes and gave him a pull signal. I could see he got very mad and he instead pointed back at the both of us. I kept pointing and #2 kept mock pulling till the main bag hit him on the back of his head. Only then did the look on his face change from being upset to understanding what we wanted. He deployed at 7k and had a wild ride for a while, but managed to land the main.

2. I was doing AFF with a very quick learning student. We were on his L6 and he had done everything required twice. Well, he was so happy with himself that he blew through his 4.5 wave off altitude. So I gave him a COA signal for a second and then a pull signal. Instead of pulling he looked dead at me, pointed back and said, "No, YOU the man!!!!" A second later, he found himself under an opening main. On the ground, he told me he had no idea that I wanted him to pull..... Even though we had covered it less than a min before.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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...Which leads to the question: I wonder how many jumpers actually know the Pull signal?



AFF is like a box of chocolates.

Teach it on the ground, drill it over and over, review it on the plane...and they sometimes will STILL turn their heads at pull time to see WTF you're pointing at.

I never did like the finger point regardless of which orientation you give it...just for that reason.
"WTF are you pointing at, dOOd?"
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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