PhreeZone 20 #26 January 3, 2005 In my 5 years of jumping I've been on hand once when a failed link (with bumper on it) was discoved by a jumper when his lines fell off the riser in the hanger. I've also see a homemade slink fail because the jumper (non-rigger) made a shoddy slink. I've got the link in my tool box as a reminder for every reserve I pack to triple check the links.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #27 January 3, 2005 I never hurt myself either. So about those links, do you have a reason why you won't put Slinks on a reserve? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #28 January 3, 2005 QuoteOK..... I'll give up now.... I'll stick with my B-12 snaps and big safe chutes... In 15years of running a drop zone I never had a rapid link fail or a B-12 snap fail for that matter... I just must be a old fart... Hell.... I still have a SAC in my GQ system with that 190sqft Excaliber ... Killer... Chill out, who ever you are. I jumped with B-12's for almost 30 years but that does not make them better, just smarter. And I have replaced the rapaid links on my rigs, both main and reserve, not because they are better, but because they are smarter. Now jumping a SAC in an old GQ system in not smart and it is not legal. Security put a fifteen year life on their sports gear. OPPS! SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #29 January 3, 2005 Quote Slinks run only once (not run twice through the lines) "Stupid is as stupid does?" Then again, this can also be said about overtightened rapid links, "having scissors built into your slider-grommets", non-tacked slider bumpers made of the wrong material, rapid links from the tool shop down the road etcetera. I prefer slinks for all the reasons Hooknswoop mentioned. They also make it slightly easier to get the slider out of the way, once its collapsed. And they look cool "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #30 January 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote I would not use soft links on a reserve... A properly installed rapid link of the right size "WILL NOT FAIL" ... 1) Slinks are stronger than Rapide links 2) It is hard to see cracks in a Rapide Link that could lead to failure. There have been a lot of Rapide link failures and 1 (because of very poor maint on the part of the jumper) Slink failure. Slinks are better than Rapide links in every way. Derek Show me "ONE" rapid link that was installed by a rigger with lock-tite and a bumper that failed... A TSO'd rapid link will not have a hair line crack in it.. Thats why they are tso'd... You know that... Are slinks good? Yes... Are rapid links good? Yes... Killer.... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a couple of cracked Maillon Rapides that I show to new riggers. Sorry I cannot tell if they had tamper dots or LocTite, because they are too badly rusted! Hah! Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #31 January 3, 2005 This is from the FAA... http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/8BBA98EC1431EC5C86256A37006FD2D1?OpenDocument&Highlight=gq%20parachute http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgTSO.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet Didn't find anything that said I can't jump it... Maybe it's "OLD" in your eyes...And it even has a Back of leg pilot chute... But it looks like new and not a thing wrong with it... You may buy in to the "new time limits" that get thrown around...And if it more then "X" years old it's no good bull... But till the faa sends me a Letter saying the TSO is void and I as a master rigger can't jump it .. I'll keep jumping it... How are slinks "Smarter" then a rapid link thats been installed by a master rigger? From what I know about the slinks they completely fail when over loaded...They also spread the load over a smaller area then a rapid link... Were a rapid link will still hold after being over loaded... the barrel threads give way before the steel snaps.... As the rapid link will bend and take a much higher laod without total failure... The rubber bumper keeps the lines and riser in the right alignment for opening loads... Now... Are slinks "Cool looking" yes... Do they work...yes.. Are they smarter? I don't think so.... It like mini risers and mini 3-rings... real cool looking but not worth the risk in my book.... I was told long ago.... There are old skydivers and bold skydivers.... But theres no old bold skydivers... Killer.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #32 January 3, 2005 QuoteAs the rapid link will bend and take a much higher laod without total failure... You might want to check PD's web site, Slinks are stronger than Rapide links. QuoteThe rubber bumper keeps the lines and riser in the right alignment for opening loads... Since Slinks don't have abarrel not, there isn't anything for the lines to get caught on and put the lines out of alignment. Also, Slinks cannot be side-loaded since they don't have any sides. I have listed how Slinks perform better than Rapide Links in every way, from strength to ease of installation to failure rate. I'll ask again, why do you feel Rapide Links are better than Slinks? (Other than Slinks are new) Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #33 January 3, 2005 Quote It was the first crossbraced canpoy ever.... Flys really nice Quote I wish they still made them! I have a 260 Excal. my 4th one... They are IMO the best demonstration canopies ever made! Fly fast enough to get you back from a marginal spot, which can happen if you don't exit over crowds.. and every landing is a tip toe stand up! I was pack one at a dz last summer and a crowd gathered.. "This is the parachute that got swooping started!" someone said... It was like a bunch of guys looking at a classic Corvette! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #34 January 3, 2005 From the pd web site on slinks it says: and I quote: In our tests, the Performance Design's Slink© survived at loadings beyond the suspension lines and/or riser! In our testing, the failure point of the system was repeatedly the suspension lines or the webbing attaching the three rings to the riser. In comparison tests, the PD reserve soft link survived tests that caused failures and/or severe damage to #4 and #5 stainless steel links! The PD Soft links not only survived these tests, but showed no signs of damage. So... If I read this right the riser will fail bafore the slink will.... So I have a bent rapid link or a failed riser at the 3ring.... I'll take a bent or failed rapid link over the failed riser... I can land with a bent rapid link... When you make one part stronger the failure point just moves... I don't want to move the failure point to the risers 3ring point... One total failure on a rapid link would still keep a canpoy over my head... A failed three ring and your dead... Killer... DOOR...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #35 January 3, 2005 Quote You may buy in to the "new time limits" that get thrown around...And if it more then "X" years old it's no good bull... GQ Security has said that they are grounded after 15 years and they made the damn thing. If you care to check with the FAA, they will tell you that the manufacture has the final say on such matters. End of case. Quote From what I know about the slinks they completely fail when over loaded... Can you document one case where this has happened? I don't think so. QuoteI was told long ago.... There are old skydivers and bold skydivers.... But theres no old bold skydivers... Jumping a SAC for a reserve in 2005 puts you in what category? It is fine to hang on to the old, but only to a certain point. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #36 January 3, 2005 I'd like to re-line it with micro-lines...Then it would really fly... It was built before bill had come up with micro-line.... It has a retracting pilotchute thats really cool...Pd never got it to work good... It had 9jumps on it and 7 were cutaways when I got it.. I did a rebuild on it and has opened ever time since... But what do I know Killer.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #37 January 3, 2005 Quote From what I know about the slinks they completely fail when over loaded... Just like Rapide links?: Quote caused failures and/or severe damage to #4 and #5 stainless steel links! Quote If I read this right I don’t think you did. Seems like with either Slinks or properly installed Rapide links, the riser failed or the Rapide link failed before the slink. Either way, you lose one line group: “In our testing, the failure point of the system was repeatedly the suspension lines or the webbing attaching the three rings to the riser.” Quote One total failure on a rapid link would still keep a canpoy over my head... A failed three ring and your dead... One failed Slink would give you the same result as one failed Rapide link. I don’t think a canopy missing an entire line group is land-able. How would a link failing be better than a complete riser failing? I have seen a cutaway cable get striped in free fall and the jumper deployed with only one riser attached. He pulled the cutaway handle to release the other rise and deployed the reserve. Why do you think a riser failure would kill you? Quote When you make one part stronger the failure point just moves... And why would you not want to increase the strength of the weak point on your reserve system? I would want the strongest link I could on my reserve……… Quote As the rapid link will bend and take a much higher laod without total failure.. So you like Rapide links better because you thought they were stronger. Now you like them better because they will fail before Slinks. Which is it? Quote I would not use soft links on a reserve... Why would you not use a stronger link on your reserve? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #38 January 3, 2005 Not one comment in the TSO that said it's grounded after 15 years... Looked all over the FAA site... GQ did that after the fact to cover their a$$.. If you buy in to the manufacture can at any time pull a tso for No reason other then to save there butt then ALL of them would do it... It still passes the TSO-c23b standard there for it airworthy.. Killer... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #39 January 3, 2005 The FAA says you must pack the reserve in accourdence with the manufactors directions. In the manual it states it lifetime. If you pack outside the directions then its a FAR violation. PD has their reserves sent back in for testing. Thats not in the TSO but its in the manual so it has to be followed.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #40 January 3, 2005 Yes I like the rapid link to fail before the riser.. The rapid link will not fail just like the slink won't fail a line or more likly a line atachment point would fail at those loads... This can go round and round... Rapid link/slink/rapid link/slink... Slinks are no better then a rapid link.... And your no smarter or better off with a slink then a rapid link... They look cool and are NEW... big deal... To get back to the tread.... If your a ding-bat and install something wrong it will fail.... A slink installed wrong is more likly to total fail then a rapid link IMO.. Now I'm done.... DOOR... Killer... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #41 January 3, 2005 Does not say that in MY manual.... dated 1978 Killer.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #42 January 3, 2005 QuoteDoes not say that in MY manual.... dated 1978 It doesn't matter what *your* manual says. If a manufacturer has issued a directive, the onus is on *you* to be in compliance with that directive. And, just for the record, soft links in general aren't new. They've been around for a long while.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #43 January 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteDoes not say that in MY manual.... dated 1978 It doesn't matter what *your* manual says. If a manufacturer has issued a directive, the onus is on *you* to be in compliance with that directive. And, just for the record, soft links in general aren't new. They've been around for a long while. Been around the block wayyyyy longer then you kris.. I know the sport and rigging VERY well Killer.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #44 January 3, 2005 QuoteYes I like the rapid link to fail before the riser.. Not smart for a reserve. I would want to make my reserve as strong as possible. QuoteAnd your no smarter or better off with a slink then a rapid link You are better off with a Slink, they are stronger. Stonger is better when it comes to parachutes, especially reserves. QuoteA slink installed wrong is more likly to total fail then a rapid link IMO..*** I'll take that bet. As already been mentioned, Slinks have been installed incorrectly w/o failing. You can't say that about Rapide links. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #45 January 3, 2005 Quote Does not say that in MY manual.... dated 1978 Does your manual have any SB's/AD's in it? Does that mean you don't follow them since they aren't in the original manual? Does your Altico Dolphin manual include the option of closing it the same way as a Javelin? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #46 January 3, 2005 QuoteI know the sport and rigging VERY well The sport, I'll concede that. But your rigging knowledge, as pertains to manufacturer's directives and how they override what's in your manual from 1978, could use some work. But, hey, if you want to cost some pilot his ticket and probably assess some fines in the process, more power to you.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #47 January 3, 2005 So where do you get safer with a slink that is stronger then everthing else? Does not make any sence to me... You keep saying that slinks are some much better then a rapid link... I just don't see how you get there???? Are you saying we're lucky to be alive have jumped with rapid links for 30years? And now we are safer? The 3ring over the capewell? yes... The slink over the rapid link? No... Killer... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #48 January 3, 2005 Quote So where do you get safer with a slink that is stronger then everthing else?Crazy Does not make any sence to me... You keep saying that slinks are some much better then a rapid link... I just don't see how you get there???? Simple: Stronger means less likely to fail. Less likely to fail is safer on reserves. If a reserve opens hard enough to cause a Rapide link to fail, but not hard enough to cause a Slink to fail, and you are deploying the reserve, what type of links would you want? Quote Are you saying we're lucky to be alive have jumped with rapid links for 30years? No, just that Slinks are safer tha Rapide Links. I do like how you go from Slinks aren't as strong, so you don't like them to Slinks are too strong, and that's why you don't like them. Seems like you are just searching for an excuse to not admit Slinks are safer....... I don't understand how you can think a weaker link is safer on a reserve. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #49 January 3, 2005 No directive was ever filed with the faa stating that the TSO was null and void after 15yrs after DOM.. I have gone over this with the FAA and they see nothing that removes the TSO for the rig.. Now.... If you have a rig with a DOM after the 15yr life was added then you would need to follow that.. If you could just add a time limit after the fact then cessna and all the other companys would ground ever plane over 5000hrs or 10years what ever comes first.... Killer... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #50 January 3, 2005 I THINK you're saying that a rapide link can open up and bend, but still hold the lines, and a slink is most likely to release completely if it fails, right? Is that a positive though (on a main)? What if that bent rapide link decides to let go when you hit some turbulence on final? I think I'd prefer to have my slink break on opening than suddenly let go at 200 feet. But on a reserve of course a broken slink would be fatal where a bent rapide link could be survivable. The failure of each one has a probability and a severity. Since a bent rapide link MIGHT still hold the lines, I'd say it has a slightly lower severity. But what about probability? My understanding is that a bent rapide link is far more likely to occur than a broken reserve slink. If the probability of a bent rapide link is sufficiently higher and the severity is not sufficiently lower, the risk associated with a bent rapide link is higher than the risk associated with a broken reserve slink. Now that may not be true.... it's just the way I'm understanding it. And I do use both main and reserve slinks on my rig. Cause they're new and cool. And stronger than rapide links, and easier to maintain, and don't require slider bumpers, and pack neater, and don't stick into my back when packed. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
