Soft v hard links - interesting pic .....

[killler 2]

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Nothing wrong with hard links, but . . . You have to make sure they are done up properly and torqued correctly. Rubber bumpers on them make them pretty fool proof. I still like them. There have been a few problems with soft links, too, so don't be complacent with any piece of equipment.

Lock Tight keeps the link from working loose over time.

The differences between soft links are:

1) If you install the soft links and Rapide links correctly, the soft links are stronger

2) Soft links are most likely to fail on opening if they fail, and fail completely. Rapide links can fail on opening and hang onto the lines just barely.

3) soft links do not require a wrench, nail polish, lock tight and bumpers to install. They also do not require replacing the bumpers or any maintenance beyond a quick once over every 30 days or so.

4) The only soft link failure
I have heard of was caused by sharp edges on the slider grommet because the jumper didn't have bumpers on their rapide links and didn't stow their slider. So the slider grommets got beat up and after they installed the slinks without inspecting their slider grommets, the grommet cut through the slink. Very poor maint by the jumper.

I can't see any reason to use rapide links with Slinks available.

Derek

Derek.... Read Line number two.... Thats what you wrote not me... Your just poved my point for me...
Thanks...killer...

[killler 2]

Dave you hit the nail on the head... It's all a point of view as to what you want to use.... I just hate when people diss stuff for no reason... I would rather have a bent rapid link then a totally fail slink.. Thats just me... To each is own...

Killer...

[Hooknswoop 19]

Then your point is flawed. Rapide links will fail before Slinks. If the opening is hard enough to damage a Rapide link, the Slink will still be fine.

No Slinks have failed on opening, because they are stronger.

If you are counting on a Rapide Link surving by barely hanging onto the lines, a Slink in the same situation would not have failed. And what if the lines fall off the damaged Rapide Link?

If a Slink fails on opening, a Rapide Link would most definately have failed, buying you nothing. So the lines hanging onto the end of a damage Rapide link wouldn't happen if the forces were high enough to break a Slink.

A Rapide link will fail at a lower load than a Slink, and if it is your reserve, you are dead.

So as the forces go up (for a reserve), you first reach where a Rapide link will open, but might still hang onto the lines (or may not), then, as the forces continue to increase, the Rapide Link completely fails. Finally, increasing the load some more, the Slink will finally fail.

The damaged link in the pic that started thread would have resulted in no damage to a Slink.

Therefore, Slinks are safer than Rapide Links.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I would rather have a bent rapid link then a totally fail slink

That's just it. Given the forces that will bend a Rapide link, you won't have a Slink failure. You will have a non-event with a Slink.

I would rather not have a failure at all than have a bent Rapide link.

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

That wasn't the nail I was aiming for, but I'm glad I hit one anyway!
I agree with what you said... I'd rather have a bent rapide link on my reserve than a failed slink. But I chose slinks because they are less likely to fail. In my opinion, the risk of the lines falling off that bent rapide link is higher than the risk that one of my slinks will break.

But I also agree that there's nothing wrong with rapide links. A burr on a slider grommet probably won't break one. Not sure if the same is true for a slink. And how often have reserve rapide links ever failed? I'm sure it's happened... but I think that when properly installed and maintained they are strong enough to handle more than the loads you'd expect during a reserve deployment. A slink will handle higher loads which might save your ass... but that doesn't make rapide links too weak either.

Dave

[killler 2]

We are talking about a miss install rapid link... Thats what this whole thread was about... Now I have said atlest ten times that slinks are fine and do there job just fine... I would not use them on a reserve for my on feeling about were the failure point should be... If you feel better jumping with slink have at it...

Everyone knows that the forces of opening need to be spread out and if every part takes part of the load then the system works... Parts fail when one or more parts fails to take its share of the opening forces... Did you read your number two reason I qouted?

Killer...

[PhreeZone 20]

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If you could just add a time limit after the fact then cessna and all the other companys would ground ever plane over 5000hrs or 10years what ever comes first....

I guess you ignore the end of life that Airtec put on the Cypres too then since in the first manual it never says that you must retire it at a certian age and its not in the TSO of a retirement age.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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We are talking about a miss install rapid link...

We are talking about Slinks vs. Rapide Links. If you want to compare the strength of an incorrectly installed Rapide Link vs. an incorrectly installed Slinks are stronger even then.

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I would not use them on a reserve for my on feeling about were the failure point should be

Where do you think the failure point is on a reserve system with Rapide Links? With Slinks?

I would think on a reserve, you don't want a failure point. You would want everything to be strong enough not to fail, because if something does, there isn't another reserve to use.

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Everyone knows that the forces of opening need to be spread out and if every part takes part of the load then the system works... Parts fail when one or more parts fails to take its share of the opening forces

No, parts fail when the forces exceed it's ability to hold the load.

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Did you read your number two reason I qouted?

Read it? Hell, I wrote it.

I think you are basing your ideas of Slinks on false assumtions. You think if the Rapide link bends and the lines hold, a Slink would have failed and you are better off with a bent Rapide link than a failed Slink.

That isn't true. The Slink wouldn't have failed if the forces were high enough to bend the link. You are better off with an intact Slink than a bent Rapide link.

What would you rather have after deploying your reserve, a bent Rapide link or an intact Slink?

Derek

[killler 2]

No... Cypres said that it must be sent to the factory ever four years for a check up... If at that check up it fails the testing standerd that they have then it no good...
Now if GQ sent a AD to the FAA stating that all tso'd gear must be sent back to them for inspection.... And the FAA approved that AD/CSB then it would be part of the manual/instructions for use...

Airtec was also bring out a new product and did not set a time limit max on its life... They said they would look how things went as they looked a cypes's after service in the field... Thats not the same as a company voiding ALL tso's because they don't want lawsuits against them..

Killer....

Just go to the FAA site and get Me the AD that removes the rig from service.... It's not there...

[Hooknswoop 19]

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No... Cypres said that it must be sent to the factory ever four years for a check up... If at that check up it fails the testing standerd that they have then it no good...

No, Airtec says you have to send it in 4 and 8 years for inspection and maintenance(+/- 3 months for the Cypres1) and that after 12 years and 3 months, it is no longer airworthy. You don't send it in a 12 years and 3 months and Airtec decides if it is airworthy. It is automatically grounded after 12 years and 3 months, no inspection required. This life span wasn't issued when the Cypress was released. That fact does not invalidate the life span.

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Just go to the FAA site and get Me the AD that removes the rig from service.... It's not there...

I can do better than an AD, FAR PArt 105:

"(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

I don't think the FAA would OK using a Cypres that is more than 12 years and 3 months old. If you can get the FAA to issue a letter stating that Airtec's Cypres life span doesn't have to be adhered to, I'd love to see it.

Derek

[Kris 0]

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We are talking about a miss install rapid link... Thats what this whole thread was about... Now I have said atlest ten times that slinks are fine and do there job just fine... I would not use them on a reserve for my on feeling about were the failure point should be...

Again, I have to agree with Hook on this one. There should be no "feeling" about where the failure point should be on a reserve. If you have opportunity to strengthen the system then one should do so.

Here's a test. Go match a properly installed Maillon Rapide link against a Slink and tell us which one breaks first.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[billvon 2,995]

>I'll stick with my B-12 snaps and big safe chutes... In 15years of running
>a drop zone I never had a rapid link fail or a B-12 snap fail for that
>matter... I just must be a old fart...

No problem at all with that, but other people do adopt new technologies, and often this makes the sport safer. A competent jumper with a conventional rig and belly-mount reserve, no reserve PC, capewell releases etc isn't as safe as a competent jumper with a more modern rig - even if the older jumper never had a problem with capewells. A lot of the advances in skydiving gear over the past 50 years (the 3-ring, the soft closing loop, the cypres, the freebag, the curved pin, the RSL, and now the soft link) have made the sport safer, and we're better off because of them.

That's not to say you are wrong to stick with things you are more comfortable with. Everyone makes their own choices on gear. But it also doesn't mean that new gear is less safe; in the great majority of cases, the opposite is true.

[killler 2]

Boy.... You like to go at it...

The cypres has a use life of 4yrs/+ -3months... thats at 4yrs/8yrs/and 12yrs.... If you send it back to them at the 4yr and they say it no good,,, well it no good.... When you send it in for it 3rd 4yr check They are going to tell you its no good... Same thing as a before.... If you fail to return it at the 3rd 4yr check then it is no good because you failed to get it checked... And as you know... There is not a thing wrong with most cypres's after 12yrs... They just won't pass them...So they can sell you a new one... Now when they get someone sell a AAD with no time MAX taking away there sales market... You will see them changing there story about the service life... Back to a every 4yr check...4/8/12/16/20 and on.. It's about money.....

Now to the links.... The forces that you have in freefall are "X" and that number is made up of your Speed and Mass... When you throw out the pilotchute you start to get rid of "X" force... The more parts of the system that can EAT up that force the less force the next part has to take... Thats why a Parachute made out of Z-P and micro-line opens harder then the same chute built out of F-111 and dacron lines.... the dacron lines and F-111 Give or eat more forces as they have more give... Micro-line and Z-P don't "GIVE" thats why they hurt you if you don't pack them to open slow....

Your turn....
Killer...

[killler 2]

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[pilotdave 0]

Do rapide links spread the opening forces out more than slinks? I don't get your point about spreading forces or what spinning malfunctions have to do with it.

Dave

[PhreeZone 20]

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The cypres has a use life of 4yrs/+ -3months... thats at 4yrs/8yrs/and 12yrs.... If you send it back to them at the 4yr and they say it no good,,, well it no good.... When you send it in for it 3rd 4yr check They are going to tell you its no good...

*Sigh....*

http://www.cypres.cc/Sites/englisch/Maintenance_for_CYPRES_1.htm

When does CYPRES need to be maintained?
A CYPRES needs the factory maintenance 4 years and 8 years after the date of production (e.g. the unit is produced 08/93: 1st maintenance is due 08/97, 2nd maintenance is due 08/2001). The total lifetime is 12 years + max. 3 months, so the units do not need a 3rd maintenance.

[/url]http://www.cypres.cc/Sites/englisch/Frameset_engl_background.htm[url]
lifetime

With this announcement we set a ball rolling:
Airtec GmbH
Wünnenberg, Germany
19 September, 2000
Press release
12 Year CYPRES Lifetime Announced
The knowledge we have gained from the work carried out during the 8-year maintenance has led us to believe that a stable functioning of the unit for four more years can be expected. We have come to this conclusion after having carried out hundreds of 8-year maintenance cycles with a large number of test repetitions, revisions, and repairs. As a result, the previously announced 10-year maintenance will not be necessary.
However, according to their manufacturers, some of the vital, primary components of the CYPRES have a restricted time of use. The replacement of these parts is not possible due to technical as well as economical reasons. The analysis of the condition of older CYPRES units has shown that in accordance with our quality standards, a twelve year life of the CYPRES is the maximum limit.
Upon reaching the age of 12 years, a CYPRES unit should no longer be used. This regulation concerning the CYPRES lifetime will result in the following: The lifetime of a CYPRES is 12 years from original date of manufacture, plus a maximum of three months.
The first CYPRES units will reach the age of 12 years in January, 2003.
Blue Skies,
your Airtec Team

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Kris 0]

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I'll need to go find the tread were Bill Booth talked about micro-line over loading the risers and a small chute in a spin over loading the the force on the cutaway cable and the need to now install hard housings to take the new loads on the system...

A canopy in a spin will indeed exert force on the cutaway system, a spinning canopy with line-twists down to the 3-rings will exert an even greater force, which is why hard-housings are important. They lessen the cutaway forces by keeping the cutaway cables from being pinched. The type of link and the type of line on the canopy, whether it's dacron, spectra, HMA, or vectran makes zero difference, so I don't know where you were going with this one.

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Like I said now 15times.... Slinks work fine as do rapid links... Slinks are not "BETTER" in that they do not make the system safer then a rapid link...

And this is where you and I disagree.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Hooknswoop 19]

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he cypres has a use life of 4yrs/+ -3months...

Not according to Airtec, they say the life span is 12 years, 3 months. They won't inspect a 12 year, 3 month old Cypres. They'll give you $60.00 towards a new one if you send it in though. IF the unit fails a 4 or 8 year inspection, they'll fix it and send it back.

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Now to the links.... The forces that you have in freefall are "X" and that number is made up of your Speed and Mass... When you throw out the pilotchute you start to get rid of "X" force... The more parts of the system that can EAT up that force the less force the next part has to take... Thats why a Parachute made out of Z-P and micro-line opens harder then the same chute built out of F-111 and dacron lines.... the dacron lines and F-111 Give or eat more forces as they have more give... Micro-line and Z-P don't "GIVE" thats why they hurt you if you don't pack them to open slow....

I'm not sure how this justifys your reasoning that you won't put Slinks on a reserve. Do you think a Rapide Link absorbs more energy than a Slink and therefore is less likely to fail? Or do you think a Rapide Link absorbs more energy so less energy is tranmitted to the jumper via the harness?

Let's say a Rapide link absorbs more energy than a Slink. First, how mcuh of a differnce would this make, and second, how does that affect the fact that Rapide links will bend, then fail, before a Slink will fail?

I still don't understand why you think Rapide links are as good as Slinks.

You talk about failurte points. Well, on a reserve system, you try to eliminate any failure points.

You talk about lines hanging onto the end of a damaged Rapide link, but fail to realize that with as Slink, you wouldn't have had the failure in the first place.

You talk about incorrectly assembled Rapide links when an ioncorrectly Rapide link will fail when a Slink wouldn't.

You say you won't put Slinks on a reserve, but they are stronger, lower bulk, easier to install, etc.

I never said Rapide links are bad, just Slinks are better. You have offered zero evidence that Rapide links are even equal to Slinks.

I have offered numerious reasons why SLinks are better than Rapide links.

Just give me one good reason why you won't put Slinks on a reserve. Give me one thing Rapide Links do beter than Slinks. Just one.

Derek

[killler 2]

A rapid link gives... it will you up forces in bending there by putting less load on the next point in the system...

The spinning mal was a remark to making one part stronger to the point that it overloads the system as it was before the adding of the supper strong point... It was a post Bill Booth had made in the thread about Chris not being able to cut away I think... I'd need to look to find it...He was talking about systems being overloaded do to a new force being add that was not there when the whole system was put in to service.... Like when they went to microline with mini-risers and they were braking and you had a hard time to cutaway.. I don't think that slinks are no good... It's just that rapid links work just fine and can handle the loads that were talking about... It is that easy...

Killer...

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I'll need to go find the tread were Bill Booth talked about micro-line over loading the risers and a small chute in a spin over loading the the force on the cutaway cable and the need to now install hard housings to take the new loads on the system...

LOL, you won't find it. Once the canopy is in a spin, the forces transmitted by the lines would be the same regardless of the type of lines. Microlines transmit more opening shock because they don't stretch. But in a constant 3-G spin, the forces on the 3-ring loop would be the same regardless if you had microlines or Dacron.

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It's not about what brakes.... It's about even forces spread over the whole system...

It is about what breaks if a Rapide link breaks on a reserve when a Slink would have held. When the forces go through the lines to the reserve risers, they pass through the links. If those forces are high enough, a Rapide link will fail before a slink.

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Like I said now 15times.... Slinks work fine as do rapid links... Slinks are not "BETTER" in that they do not make the system safer then a rapid link...

We agree that Slinks are stronger than Rapide links, right? How can stronger links that reduce the chance of a reserve failure not make the reserve system safer?

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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A rapid link gives... it will you up forces in bending there by putting less load on the next point in the system...

How much does a Rapide link 'give' over a Slink?

How much of a reduction on forces transmitted from the lines to the reserve risers does this translate into?

Once lines stretch to their maximum stretch point, they transmitt 100% of the forces to the links and to the risers.

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It's just that rapid links work just fine and can handle the loads that were talking about

They work OK, but Slinks are obviously better. How many broken Rapide links have seen/heard about? How many broken Slinks have you seen/heard about?

Slinks are stronger, it is that easy.....

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

I totally agree with you but I'm just wondering about the possibilty of breaking a slink with a burred slider grommet (or any other grommet that it might contact).

Slinks ARE stronger in tension. But I'd guess they are much less cut resistant. How about long term wear? Canopy lines wear out and can break right? Obviously the answer to that is just looking at them every once in a while... but how do I know that the wear will be obvious/visible? How prone are slinks to manufacturing flaws?

Those concerns are probably more realistic for main slinks, not reserve slinks. I'm just curious what your opinion is. Slinks are stronger, but they're also newer and it's possible that not every failure mode has been seen yet.

Dave

[killler 2]

I'll try this one more time....

The point about Bill Booth and the problem with microline and mini risers have NOT one thing to do with useing slinks or rapid links....

It was to point out that a system needs to be balanced to work right... Change a part of the system and the whole thing changes....

Now... Making the slink supper stong does NOT make the system stronger.... The rapid link is not and has never been the falure point in a parachute system.... The falure point in most cases is the fabric and the line atachment point the the line then the link then the webbing then the stiching of the harness....

If I make everything as strong as I can... Some thing must fail.... Everthing fails at some point... The key to building anything is to make all parts share the "WORK"... And then we have balance..

So back to the point.... A rapid link is not going to fail as is a slink will not fail in said system ...

This thread is about things installes wrong... I like rapid links.... I like to use tools... Makes me feel manly I guess? Slinks are to cool for me... I like balance in a system.... You like slinks... It's fine with me... And I would pack a rig with slinks just like I'd pack a rig with rapid links... Al the same to me...

Killer

[killler 2]

They just tell you right out that the 3rd 4yr check is a waste of time... It's still a 4yr cycle... 4/8/12... Get it... I love how people take one word and fail to read all the words....

I've got a few people that read all that I have written and have no trouble understanding what I stated...

It's only when you read the white instand of the black that theres a problem....

Killer

[Hooknswoop 19]

I would not use soft links on a reserve...”

“And I would pack a rig with slinks just like I'd pack a rig with rapid links”

Hmmmm. Did you just reverse yourself?

“Now... Making the slink supper stong does NOT make the system stronger.... The rapid link is not and has never been the falure point in a parachute system....”

I disagree. Rapide links have failed. Anything you can do to make the reserve system stronger makes it safer. As for balance, that doesn’t make any sense. You cannot have a reserve system or component of a reserve system that is too string for the rest of the system. If you double the strength of the links, you only make the system better, not throw it out of ‘balance’.

Where you have been wrong so far in this thread:

“Were a rapid link will still hold after being over loaded... the barrel threads give way before the steel snaps.... As the rapid link will bend and take a much higher laod without total failure...”

The Slink is stronger than a Rapide link. Given a force where a Rapide Link will fail, a Slink will still hold.

“I don't want to move the failure point to the risers 3ring point...”

This is what Bill Booth has to say about the failure point for a main canopy:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1042892;search_string=microline;#1042892

“If something has to break, it should be above the main riser attachment ring.”

“One total failure on a rapid link would still keep a canpoy over my head... A failed three ring and your dead...”

Simply not true. As I said, I have seen a 3-ring release on opening. It resulted in a simple reserve ride. I have released on riser before the other on an intentional cutaway system before without any issues. Far from being dead.

“A slink installed wrong is more likly to total fail then a rapid link IMO..”

Not true. I have seen failed Rapide links, but there are cases of incorrectly installed Slinks holding. In fact, there aren’t any cases of Slinks ailing from improper assembly

“would not use them on a reserve for my on feeling about were the failure point should be”

Where would you put the failure point on a reserve?

Me- I wouldn’t have a failure point on a reserve.

Given the 4 (+, I won’t get into life span issues) things you’ve said in this thread that are wrong, I would re-think your position on Slinks.

Derek