EAerodyne 0 #26 January 20, 2005 To give people an idea of why these reserves pack smaller: The Fabric industry has released a fabric (exclusively to PD for a 2 year period, meaning no one other manufacturers can get their hands on it till end of 2006) The fabric is still the same fabric but 20 Denier, instead of 30 Denier. This means that the fabric will pack slightly smaller, however due the fact that the fabric also takes longer to make (smaller thread means more passes of the shuttle on the loom) It will probably be quite expensive. Initial guess are that there is a 15-20% reduction in pack volume. This is countered some what by the fact that the tensile strength is not as strong as 30 denier, thus needing more reinforcing. However lines and tapes are lines and tapes and they don't change too much. I am sure that PD being as progressive and as technologically advanced as they are are working on lighter weight reinforcing tapes to counter this as well. Bill Coe has amazing experience with materials and is responsible for a lot of introductions in the current market place. Not to mention he is an incredibly smart man, who has proved his knowledge of parachute manufacturing over and over again. 15% on a 113 is not really that great, but on a 250 or a student canopy that would be quite noticeable. The question will still remain that the fabric costs twice as much as current F1-11 and therefore will be dramatically more expensive..... the gain is probably an inch or so in your container size in the reserve. PD also has an exclusive on the zero porosity version of this fabric although, it doesn't seem to have the same advantages as the F1-11 for some reason. The Silicon coating still makes it pack large and the reduction is not that noticeable. Aerodyne has been offered samples for testing but not enough for production of canopies so that when the market opens up that they'll be able to sell to more manufacturers. However till manufacturers start measuring their canopies using the same method. You will never know how big your reserve really is. hope this helps people understand a little more of why and what is being offered out there Kind regards Bushman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #27 January 20, 2005 QuoteHowever till manufacturers start measuring their canopies using the same method. You will never know how big your reserve really is. So true. What if Aerodyne stepped up to the plate, and started using PD's method. Then, two of the largest parachute companies would be unified, and could weild some influence in getting the other companies out there to follow suit. Problem solved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #28 January 20, 2005 Great answer Bushman! Thanks for taking the time to keep everyone here in the loop on the trends and workings of the industry!Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropzonefool 0 #29 January 20, 2005 I know PD design great reserves, but I'll be reading very carefully about the testing and strength of this material before I buy one!!! Nick<<<< Ditto, I am very interested about how strong this new material is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EAerodyne 0 #30 January 20, 2005 Hi Dave, perhaps I didn't make myself clear in my original post. I'd be happy to measure it the same way as PD, if that method was published so that everyone knew how it was measured and also so that it was relatively easy for the average rigger/jumper in the field. kind regards and blue skies Bushman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CygnusX-1 43 #31 January 20, 2005 What about the weight aspect of the reserve? Not knowing anything about fabric, would a 20 Denier fabric be more dense than a 30 Denier? Or is it just like packing volume; will it weigh 10% less? I know you can't comment directly to PD's canopies, but what would you guess? This also makes another question come to mind and I don't think I have heard a definitive answer to. Using this technology, I would assume that you could pair a much larger reserve with a smaller main. Is there any reason you would not want to do this, e.g. dual deployment? I have always thought that there was some reason since most containers supported similar sized main and reserve canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #32 January 21, 2005 QuoteWhat if Aerodyne stepped up to the plate, and started using PD's method. Then, two of the largest parachute companies would be unified, and could weild some influence in getting the other companies out there to follow suit. Problem solved. Or what if every manufacturer used the established method by the PIA. You know the organization comprised of all the manufacturers?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crewkeith 0 #33 January 21, 2005 hey isaiah whens it comeing out??? the z brace i mean i want one sign me up want my credit card number??? a little news please!!!!!!!! what kind of wingloading??? i jump a velo 103 now at 2.1 ish when do the demos come out??? hook a brother up!! come on dont hold out on me. sign me up for a demo when they get ready!!! .The skies are no longer safe I'm back Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #34 January 21, 2005 Good grief....... ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #35 January 21, 2005 QuoteGood grief....... BTW, did you clean the windows yet? Good seeing you at the fish bowl. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #36 January 21, 2005 Quotehey isaiah whens it comeing out??? the z brace i mean i want one sign me up want my credit card number??? a little news please!!!!!!!! what kind of wingloading??? i jump a velo 103 now at 2.1 ish when do the demos come out??? hook a brother up!! come on dont hold out on me. sign me up for a demo when they get ready!!! . off topic but checking on your profile - have you ever had to land your 120-M at that high wing loading and high DZ altitude??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #37 January 21, 2005 QuoteOr what if every manufacturer used the established method by the PIA. You know the organization comprised of all the manufacturers? Well, yeah, that would work too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #38 January 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhat if Aerodyne stepped up to the plate, and started using PD's method. Then, two of the largest parachute companies would be unified, and could wield some influence in getting the other companies out there to follow suit. Problem solved. Or what if every manufacturer used the established method by the PIA. You know the organization comprised of all the manufacturers? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aerodyne sort of uses PD's method (bottom skin area) for measuring their Solo student canopies, which confuses the shorts off me as they claim that Aerodyne's Solo 270 has the same amount of fabric as a Skymaster 290 or Manta 290. We have all three canopies in our student fleet and the only way to tell the difference is that our Solo is whiter because it is newer. Icarus converted to PD's measuring method in 2000. However, we will remain confused until PIA publishes a new measuring method. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #39 January 21, 2005 The funniest thing about PD occurred during the closing banquet. PIA announced that a company that sells to the military had the third best display, Precision the second and PD the best. When no-one from PD stepped up to collect the award, they handed the "Best Display" award to Precision! Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakyrat 1 #40 January 22, 2005 I liked all the displays and thought that after PD and The Relative Workshop, that Larsen and Brusgaard had one of the best displays. I also have to say that the seminars were very informative, especially Brian Germain's and Scott Miller's. I learned some neat tricks from Scott on packing and inspecting my main canopy. Brian and Scott also gave me some final approach flying tips to correct some things I was doing wrong. Just a little minor thing but I think applying these tips is going to make my canopy flight much smoother. I just want to thank everyone involved for making this Convention what it was. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gafneyjr 0 #41 January 23, 2005 I thought PD, L&B had great booths. But that was the most ridiculous move PIA could make, or however decided to do that. Best booth is best booth! They played it like it was a raffle. If you win an award it is yours, you cant take it away. This is not a prize to be won through a raffle. What a joke, the MC and judges should be ashamed of themselves. They announced PD won the best booth, and so it should stand. I just think they screwed up by changing their minds on the spot! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fields 0 #42 January 24, 2005 side by side photo attached. The concept XQ143 reserve with PD143 and PD106 (I believe)."And the sky is blue and righteous in every direction" Survivor Chuck Palahniuk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crewkeith 0 #43 January 24, 2005 yep 3 times now the last one hurt. ordered a pd 126 because of it. .The skies are no longer safe I'm back Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #44 January 24, 2005 That will land much better up here. Trust me I KNOW!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crewkeith 0 #45 January 24, 2005 yeah you missed i whopper of a mal. RDS didnt work on that one. .The skies are no longer safe I'm back Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanopyPiloting 0 #46 January 24, 2005 Wonder where PD got this idea for new so called "Z-brace"? Just wondering. Also, where is the new canopy with this Z-brace? Icarus NZ will have a JVX and JSX (45 cell with new NZ bracing) at the 2nd World Cup of Canopy Piloting if anyone wants to take a look... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #47 January 24, 2005 QuoteWonder where PD got this idea for new so called "Z-brace"? Just wondering. No idea. I heard it's been in the works for a while now, but who really knows? Does seem like a logical continuation from the Crossbrace theory though. QuoteIcarus NZ will have a JVX and JSX (45 cell with new NZ bracing) at the 2nd World Cup of Canopy Piloting if anyone wants to take a look... Nice, I've seen the JVX in action (you were flying it at the farm when you held the PST qualifier) and it seemed like a nice canopy. At the time there were no details on the JSX. Sounds like the JSX (if it's a 45 cell) is going to be similar to the z-brace then in that you'll be adding multiple more chambers to a cell? Got any pics? Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanopyPiloting 0 #48 January 24, 2005 Looks like their so called Z-bracing is like our "NZ bracing"... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #49 January 24, 2005 OK....which came first??? Zbrace...or NZbrace....????? Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanopyPiloting 0 #50 January 25, 2005 Well, I guess we will never know for sure but I can tell you Icarus NZ has been flying their "NZ" braced 45 cell "JSX" since last year. It is ironic that PD has not upgraded or introduced one new tri brace canopy since the Velocity came out in 1999 but as soon as Icarus NZ starts flying the JVX and JSX in public they start passing around a brochure about a new type of cell structure calling it the "Z-brace". Who at PD designed the Z-brace and why haven't we heard about it before? Will they fly a canopy with this new Z-brace this year? Anyway, the JSX with "NZ" bracing from Icarus "NZ" will be at several events this year for your viewing pleasure. Note: this new wing type with new NZ bracing is designed for a specific use. This is not your typical cross braced canopy. Look for it in 2005... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
