NightJumper 0 #51 January 25, 2005 I love people who hide! What does it matter who at PD designed it? There was a prototype at the symposium and it has been flown. Also why does it matter what the name is? And is it "ironic" or is a smart business decision? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #52 January 25, 2005 I kind of agree with Jim in that perception rules peoples minds more often than fact. When the FX came out, hard core PD fans said it wouldn't work, or was not efficient. When the Velocity came out they changed their minds. When the VX came out they said 21 cells was all that was needed, and 27 was no higher performance. We already hear the rumblings of those that want to be the first kid on the block with a new toy...... I'm not knocking PD here they made one of my favorite canopies of all time, I'm just saying many people are easily led sheep. My personal example is the Xaos. It's an increadible refinement of the original VX concept. Yet many turn their nose up simply because of the sticker on it. Re lable it and most wouldn't know the difference.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #53 January 25, 2005 However, just because PD hasn't said anything about a new canopy, that doesn't mean that they haven't been testing it for a long while now. You know, black rigs, black canopies, jumpers dressed like ninjas going out of black helicopters outside of DeLand... There have been a good handful of canopy designers out there that have designed and played with various crossbracing designs that never got used in a large manner...such as the Stealth by Lenord Moorehead. Personally I love the competition between Icarus and PD (as well as the others), since it has really driven canopy design. I've jumped a lot of PD canopies (as well as a couple other manufactures) and I currently jump an Icarus canopy.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #54 January 25, 2005 Agreed. And PD WAS the first kid on the block to play with Crossbracing in a sport canopy. People forget that too..... Gyro was the one who decided that there was going to be a market and hung on to a bit of faith.......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #55 January 25, 2005 QuoteCrossbracing in a sport canopy. The Exacaliber....in F111 no less....you could get a 190 square footer too!!! now that's high performance. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #56 January 25, 2005 I heard rumors of PD test jumping something that would blow away the Velo last winter but it was still very much in development and really... there was no real market for it so I understood why they were not putting it as a high profile demo like they are with the new material reserves. Rumors are a fun thing some times huh? Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #57 January 25, 2005 Everyone also needs to understand that from a business point, the military market is much larger than the sport market and there has been a lot of development there that most people no nothing about. To put it in perspective, in 2002 the sport market generated about $18M in revenue compared to over $66M on the military side. And the military side has allowed a lot of good companies to stay in business to make all of the great sport equipment. So some companies may have had items on the shelf but they were not a priority to bring to the market from a business point of view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #58 January 25, 2005 Very much a good point. How many people are really qualified to be flying such a high proformace wing? MAYBE a 100? How many of them are on the factory team already and will be getting a free or greatly discounted canopy? Not much profit to be made in those canopies being sold. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanopyPiloting 0 #59 January 25, 2005 It doesn't really matter what the name is or who first designed it but I still find it a funny coincidence. You guys do know what I mean don't you? O.K. check it out: 1995 Icarus NZ releases Mach 1 Extreme 1997 Icarus NZ releases 21 cell tribraced "FX" Extreme 1999 PD releases 21 cell tribraced "Velocity" 1999 Icarus NZ releases 27 cell tribraced "VX" 2004 Icarus NZ begins testing and flying in public a 33 cell tribraced prototype 2004 Icarus NZ showcases their improved version of the VX called the "JVX" at the U.S. Nationals of Canopy Piloting 2004 Icarus NZ begins flight testing of their 45 cell "JSX" which includes a new cell structure (penta) dubbed "NZ" bracing 2005 PD releases information at PIA they are in development of a new cell structure called "Z-bracing". In the end I am very glad there is more than one company out there pushing the limits of HP canopy development. Cause it wouldn't be very fun if we all had to fly the same canopy or drive the same type car to the DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #60 January 25, 2005 Jim, there was an un-named "Z-braced" PD canopy hanging at their display at the PIA symposium. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diver23 0 #61 January 25, 2005 Well there is also the Onyx 36 cell from Atair. where could that one be placed on the time-line? Between the VX, Velocity etc. and the Z-brace, JSX. In the end they are all inspired by paragliders I guess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #62 January 25, 2005 I think you forgot about the "FIRST" cross-braced canopy.... The PD Exacaliber.... And then added micro-line to the sport and then Zero-P canopys... Pd is so far ahead of the rest it's funny that you think they need to STEAL from anyone....LOL... Killer.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #63 January 25, 2005 I don't think it matters who stole from who, which design was first, who had the idea, who released it first, etc.... What matters is who does it better. Not that I'll be finding myself under one of those tiny pieces of nylon anytime soon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #64 January 25, 2005 QuoteI think you forgot about the "FIRST" cross-braced canopy.... The PD Exacaliber.... That may have been the first sport parachuting crossbraced, but paraglider technology has been using them for some time..... QuotePd is so far ahead of the rest it's funny that you think they need to STEAL from anyone I agree they don't need to steal anything, but what makes you believe they are "so far ahead of the rest"?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #65 January 25, 2005 To start with, I fly a VX. PD hasn't needed to bring out a new canopy since the Velo has been the overall top performing canopy, PERIOD. Its not like you, Jim, don't have something in the game here when you put down PD, and everyone knows it. How unlikely is it that PD has not been working on a new design for years? How likely is it tht PD's new canopy will not outperfrom tiny little NZIcarus' canopy, given that PD has 100 times the money to spend on research? A few JSX and JVXs have been flown for a few jumps (may a couple or a few thousand total). Thats hardly high quality research and it hardly begins to find out the design's structural integrity. The JSX and JVX are nice marketing campaigns to sell HP canopies, but the way you are going about it is perculiar. You can't simultaniously be a marketing rep and a "trusted canopy expert" with a neutral point of view. You want to sell these canopies to make money, and that is a good pursuit. Congrats on your entrprenurial spirit. However, don't try to take cheap shots at PD or suggest that the leading canopy designing and manufacturer in the world is stealing (your) designs. It cheapens your pursuits. If your stuff is a superior design and quality, they will sell. If they are nice marketing efforts with nothing behind them, the market will quickly figure that out. One win does not a canopy make. Best of luck. I love my VX (with a dome slider I've had for over a year), and have been waiting for new designs to emerge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EAerodyne 0 #66 January 25, 2005 All discussions and opinions aside, and if focusing on the fact who was first. Bill Coe owns the patent to cross bracing and was awarded a US patent for the cross brace. Like it not, that is who theoretically has legal rights to it and it can be searched on the US patent office's website. It is a US patent only and therefore can be built outside of the US, however would be totally in PD's rights to protect themselves should it be sold or marketed in the US. Most people using cross brace technology today are in actual default of patent rights and royalties owed to PD and could theoretically be sued for not obtaining a licenesing agreement. Paul Martin (jyro) had a gentlemans agreement with PD to build cross braces for the NZ market only. It was when he went into business with Precision and started selling into the US that the drama unfolded. Precision and PD reached some legal licensing agreement and were then permitted to build them under license. Jyro's a decent lad, ask him what happened and who was first, I was there and so was he... :-) I think it is great that there are companies pushing PD, and in return that PD is giving us smaller companies something to aim at... It fuels our fire. As for Paragliding... there is only one company that builds canopies for both markets succesfully and advertises as much and that is Aerodyne....and I can say this much...... We will be bringing some of that technology to the skydiving market place in the near future. Competition is a great thing.... it stimulates the market place and pushes us to develop better equipment and in the end the end user is the one that benefits the most. kind regards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #67 January 25, 2005 QuoteCompetition is a great thing.... it stimulates the market place and pushes us to develop better equipment and in the end the end user is the one that benefits the most. Exactly. Thanks for the history lesson. Not much new to me, but I'm sure a few will be educated by some of it. So when are you coming out here to visit again? Nationals? Brinking the OYAWO again?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EAerodyne 0 #68 January 25, 2005 Hopefully I'll get out there long before nationals bud, At least I hope so. :-), waiting for you guyz to dry out after your put too much water in that swoop pond. L8R Bushman - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanopyPiloting 0 #69 January 25, 2005 "Competition is a great thing.... it stimulates the market place and pushes us to develop better equipment and in the end the end user is the one that benefits the most"...right on Bushman! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #70 January 25, 2005 I hear Perris looks like Moss Point does during the Mardi Gras boogie! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #71 February 26, 2005 Quote To start with, I fly a VX. PD hasn't needed to bring out a new canopy since the Velo has been the overall top performing canopy, PERIOD. how about a canopy that opens softly consistantly like the crossfire? definately not a sabre or stiletto! they'r crackers i'm talking from a camera point of view. they have the spectre but that is only a 7 cell wheras the crossfire has pace! how about these katanas how do they open? can they compete with the opening of a crossfire?i havn't heard of one of those in action yet but i'm down here in 'NZ' "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #72 February 26, 2005 Quotehow about these katanas how do they open? can they compete with the opening of a crossfire?i havn't heard of one of those in action yet but i'm down here in 'NZ' Having jumped both the XF2 109 and the Katana 107 I can safely say that the Katana outperforms the XF2 in every aspect across the board. Of course that's just my opinion, I'm sure you'll find others who believe the opposite. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #73 February 26, 2005 Quote I can safely say that the Katana outperforms the XF2 in every aspect across the board Except for availability of sizes that are useful to normal sized people like myself.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #74 February 27, 2005 QuoteExcept for availability of sizes that are useful to normal sized people like myself. Heh! Not sure I'd consider anyone who can load a 150 at almost 2.0 with no weights as "normal sized" Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #75 February 27, 2005 the katana seems to be pd's version of the xfire is that the case do you think? are the openings nice and soft on the katana?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
ianmdrennan 2 #72 February 26, 2005 Quotehow about these katanas how do they open? can they compete with the opening of a crossfire?i havn't heard of one of those in action yet but i'm down here in 'NZ' Having jumped both the XF2 109 and the Katana 107 I can safely say that the Katana outperforms the XF2 in every aspect across the board. Of course that's just my opinion, I'm sure you'll find others who believe the opposite. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #73 February 26, 2005 Quote I can safely say that the Katana outperforms the XF2 in every aspect across the board Except for availability of sizes that are useful to normal sized people like myself.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #74 February 27, 2005 QuoteExcept for availability of sizes that are useful to normal sized people like myself. Heh! Not sure I'd consider anyone who can load a 150 at almost 2.0 with no weights as "normal sized" Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #75 February 27, 2005 the katana seems to be pd's version of the xfire is that the case do you think? are the openings nice and soft on the katana?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
