Scrumpot 1 #26 November 22, 2010 Quote Well... just for your information... at our dropzone we use Navigator 200's, 220's, 240's and 260's. We have nothing smaller than a 200 for students and nothing larger than a 260. What we allow the student to jump solely depends on their weight and previous canopy control. --------------------------------- Well... just for your information... you don't represent every dropzone buddy I work as an AFFI at SEVERAL DZ's. Each of them (sure - I suppose not necessarily in my case representing every dropzone globally either - feel free to retort - but you are also representing all? ) have SEVERAL various size canopies available for student use, ranging from 190 in 3 out of 5 cases (DZ's) - - 210 at the 2 others... to 280 (4 of the 5) - - and 300sq ft at the 1 other. Just FWIW.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #27 November 22, 2010 >i'm sure that would require manuevers that a student would most >defenatly not do: crank the toggle to feet, front riser spirals(large amount >of strengh would be required for that) etc etc Students do indeed do such things. Not because they're trying to go fast, but because they're students and they screw up. Years ago I had a student who decided to steer with front risers, perhaps because I spent too much time talking about how to steer with rear risers if the toggles on their reserve got stuck. Fortunately the person landing noticed it when they got to ~500 feet, and got them to let go of the fronts before the flare. (Ironically they had the toggles in their hands.) At Perris we avoid such issues by 1) being very clear about "no major turns below 1000 feet" and 2) using expert cypreses instead of student cypreses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #28 November 22, 2010 Quoteask anywhere and 280's are pretty much the standard for first jump students QuoteOk, name 10 dropzones where they have told you they only use 280s for first jump students. If it is really true that you can "ask anywhere" and get this answer you should have no trouble with this task. once again your eyes have failed you... Quoteask anywhere and 280's are pretty much the standard for first jump students i never said only, just said the standard meaning its the first canopy they make their first jump on, subsequent jumps and they progress downLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #29 November 22, 2010 once again, another person who has not read my first post Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #30 November 22, 2010 Quote Personally, not being an instructor, I wouldn't make any canopy recommendations for students - and I suggest you do the same. If you were to put a 100lb girl on a 280 it is possible that they would not have the strength to flare it. Did you consider that? I personally have never jumped anything bigger than the 200 I started on. We put out the occasional 100 lbs girl on 290 skymasters if the 230 rigs are being jumped by someone else, or for the ripcord jumps. They manage just fine I personally put 50 jumps on skymaster 290 and manta 288 at the very high wingload of .45 (there was only one 230 at the time and it didn't make an ounce of difference to me anyway) and I'm a wuss, no problems whatsoever with flaring them. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #31 November 22, 2010 Over here, we need to use the student version of an AAD if it has one, for the first 25 jumps. I saw a 4rd jump SL student do consecutive stall turns on a manta once, down to 30m We were kinda waiting for the AAD to fire... Which it luckily didn't. He also straightened out just in time for a flare. Turns out he had some paraglider experience... Didn't think the "don't turn below 250 ft" rule applied to HIM, and turned white at the mention of the AAD. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spootch 0 #32 November 22, 2010 QuoteQuote ask anywhere and 280's are pretty much the standard for first jump students Ok, name 10 dropzones where they have told you they only use 280s for first jump students. If it is really true that you can "ask anywhere" and get this answer you should have no trouble with this task. 310s for the big guys and 288s for the rest, 210 for the 100 lb chicks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #33 November 22, 2010 Quote once again, another person who has not read my first post You mean the one where you state that (it is presumably your opinion that) the only appropriate gear for student gear in the 1st place, is (or should be) 280sq ft canopies? Yeah, I read that post too. When you come up with a valid post (point of view) worthy of directly responding to - I'll be happy to. - Back atcha. coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #34 November 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteask anywhere and 280's are pretty much the standard for first jump students QuoteOk, name 10 dropzones where they have told you they only use 280s for first jump students. If it is really true that you can "ask anywhere" and get this answer you should have no trouble with this task. once again your eyes have failed you... Quoteask anywhere and 280's are pretty much the standard for first jump students i never said only, just said the standard meaning its the first canopy they make their first jump on, subsequent jumps and they progress down Yeah - I didn't think you would be able to list them. I asked somewhere, which I assume you would agree is a subset of anywhere and was told, "No, a 280 is not the standard canopy for first jump students, we evaluate each student individually and first jumps may be performed on canopies ranging from 200 to 280 sq ft.". You have formed an opinion from your narrow range of experience and are extrapolating it to be true for the majority of DZs. You have done this in numerous threads and been corrected many, many times. Does it not start to get through to you that when people disagree with you consistently, you may be in the wrong?"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #35 November 22, 2010 Quote We put out the occasional 100 lbs girl on 290 skymasters if the 230 rigs are being jumped by someone else, or for the ripcord jumps. They manage just fine I certainly don't want to disagree with your experience, but I personally know several girls who had trouble flaring the larger student canopies and found that the toggle pressure improved when they downsized to a 200 or 190."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #36 November 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteask anywhere and 280's are pretty much the standard for first jump students QuoteOk, name 10 dropzones where they have told you they only use 280s for first jump students. If it is really true that you can "ask anywhere" and get this answer you should have no trouble with this task. once again your eyes have failed you... Quoteask anywhere and 280's are pretty much the standard for first jump students i never said only, just said the standard meaning its the first canopy they make their first jump on, subsequent jumps and they progress down Yeah - I didn't think you would be able to list them. I asked somewhere, which I assume you would agree is a subset of anywhere and was told, "No, a 280 is not the standard canopy for first jump students, we evaluate each student individually and first jumps may be performed on canopies ranging from 200 to 280 sq ft.". You have formed an opinion from your narrow range of experience and are extrapolating it to be true for the majority of DZs. You have done this in numerous threads and been corrected many, many times. Does it not start to get through to you that when people disagree with you consistently, you may be in the wrong? haha like you are one to talk 200 jumps in 20 years? thats an average of ten a year, i'm not going to waste my time to try and reason with you when i am far more experienced. you are just looking for a fight to stroke your ego I'll be happy to add you to my skygod listLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sniper1rfa 0 #37 November 22, 2010 Quote i never said only, just said the standard meaning its the first canopy they make their first jump on, subsequent jumps and they progress down My first jump at a nearby DZ this summer was on a 230 navigator, IIRC. I weigh ~190 out the door. The student canopies (about 15 of them) were 200-260. There may have been a 280 for the fat guys. :) The other DZ's I've jumped at now had similar selections. Rental gear has typically been 150-200. Also, we were warned as students very thoroughly about the dangers of low turns, both due to altitude loss and possible AAD activation. Just throwing that out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #38 November 22, 2010 Quotehaha like you are one to talk 200 jumps in 20 years? thats an average of ten a year, i'm not going to waste my time to try and reason with you when i am far more experienced. you are just looking for a fight to stroke your ego I'll be happy to add you to my skygod list No, I am trying to show you that sometimes, you can be wrong and it's OK to admit it. It's when you don;t admit it that you end up looking like a fuckwit. I now have over 200 jumps including over 100 jumps this year AND did my first one 20 years ago AND did AFF 4 years ago AND listen to people. Care to change your opinion about who has more experience?"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #39 November 22, 2010 Quote Quote haha like you are one to talk 200 jumps in 20 years? thats an average of ten a year, i'm not going to waste my time to try and reason with you when i am far more experienced. you are just looking for a fight to stroke your ego I'll be happy to add you to my skygod list No, I am trying to show you that sometimes, you can be wrong and it's OK to admit it. It's when you don;t admit it that you end up looking like a fuckwit. I now have over 200 jumps including over 100 jumps this year AND did my first one 20 years ago AND did AFF 4 years ago AND listen to people. Care to change your opinion about who has more experience? In your eyes i'm wrong Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #40 November 22, 2010 He didn't say you WHERE a "fuck wit", just looked like one. Just sayen' But the point he had in there is valid, although a bit over shadowed by the "Fuck wit" thing. Matt An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 3 #41 November 22, 2010 Quote Quote Quote haha like you are one to talk 200 jumps in 20 years? thats an average of ten a year, i'm not going to waste my time to try and reason with you when i am far more experienced. you are just looking for a fight to stroke your ego I'll be happy to add you to my skygod list No, I am trying to show you that sometimes, you can be wrong and it's OK to admit it. It's when you don;t admit it that you end up looking like a fuckwit. I now have over 200 jumps including over 100 jumps this year AND did my first one 20 years ago AND did AFF 4 years ago AND listen to people. Care to change your opinion about who has more experience? In your eyes i'm wrong "Can't we all just beat the sh*t out of each other, already???"Actually, petejones, in just about every other poster's eyes, here. You're wrong. The OP never said "First jump." He asked about student gear. You said all students should be jumping a chute that is 280ish. You were wrong about that. You were also wrong about some of the stupid things some students will do. My DZ uses student canopies ranging from 280 - 200. Personally, I pulled quite a spiral during an early jump. The ground sure came up fast. I couldn't hear the instructor yelling @me on the radio. I pulled out of it @2500'. I could see someone easily going lower. FWIW to All. I contacted Vigil about their student parameters a while back. There was a discrepancy @my DZ. The student model will fire @1,000'. Plus 260' to allow for all possible body positions. The Tandem AADs can go off a little under 2500'. It's perfectly OK to be wrong about something. It's quite another thing to be unable to admit that you're wrong. This is a threshold moment for you, Pete. Step through... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blamey 0 #42 November 22, 2010 Quote This is a threshold moment for you, Pete. Step through... +1 Post of the month. Thanks for that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #43 November 22, 2010 Uh, guys? Watching someone with 200 jumps argue with someone who has 125 jumps over who has more experience with students is like watching two student pilots argue over who has more experience in air to air combat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cavscout73 0 #44 November 23, 2010 QuoteUh, guys? Watching someone with 200 jumps argue with someone who has 125 jumps over who has more experience with students is like watching two student pilots argue over who has more experience in air to air combat. i gotta remember that one!!! it works in so many other aspects outside of skydiving.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #45 November 23, 2010 This nugget of wisdom is why your a MODERATOR Sir! MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #46 November 23, 2010 QuoteIn your eyes i'm wrong You're actually wrong about a lot of things, and not just in this thread. You continue to make the mistake of posting these blanket statements about various areas of skydiving. 'Making up your mind' about things at such an early stage presents an obstacle your learning. The responses you get to some of your statements should clue you in that the reality of things is not always the same as the conclusions you have drawn. The refusal to accept this is where you learning ends, as you're not open to the idea you might be wrong. The truth is that the only thing 'most' DZs do with regards to student canopies is that most of them tend to keep things in the 200 sq ft and up range. Beyond that, you will find 10 different set of circumstances at 10 different DZs. The other truth is that is does not take extraordinary manuvers to fire a student Cypres while jumping a student canopy. Every student is different with regards to how aggressively they turn the canopy, and it just comes down to their comfort level. Some of them seem to enjoy stabbing a toggle down to their waist to initiate a turn, and you need to remind them (via the radio) to slow down the turns as they get lower. To further the point, students are given key altitudes at which they need to limit turns to 'x' degrees, such as nothing more than a 180 below 1000ft, nothing more than a 90 below 500ft, and nothing more than a 90 below 250ft, and small corrections only there after. This is designed to first help reduce the possibility of an AAD fire, and second to reduce the possibility of a student hooking it in (not in order of importance, but in chronological order). You don't learn anything making statements. You learn things by listening and asking questions. It's good for your to be confident in your abilities, but be realistic that even the best, smartest, sharpest guy with 100 or 150 jumps still has a world of knowledge to learn, and a mountain of experience to climb. You might be the best of the best with 100 or 150 jumps, or you might just be average for your experience, but in either case, slow your roll and enjoy the ride. There's a lot for you to learn, and you're lucky to have that ahead of you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #47 November 23, 2010 Quote This is a threshold moment for you, Pete. Step through... I don't think he's coming. *sigh*My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 2 #48 November 23, 2010 Dave, meet Brick Wall. Brick Wall . . . well, there you are."Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petejones45 0 #49 November 23, 2010 haha you sure are funnyLook out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #50 November 23, 2010 I've watched every episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer at least twice. If not for these threads that degenerate into an argument about who has more experience than Pete, I don't know what I'd do for entertainment.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
