skybill 22 #26 September 17, 2011 Hi ace, Yer right! The "Q" is why did it roll to the right?? Perhaps when he went unconscious and fell forward on the stick he pushed it to the right?? Just guessin'?? Only Jimmy really knows and he ain't talkin'.SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #27 September 17, 2011 They're saying 9 dead now. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver30960 0 #28 September 18, 2011 Holy crap on a stick. What an awful year for air shows. Elvisio "no more bad news please" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 3 #29 September 18, 2011 I've got a stupid question. I thought airshows are heavily regulated by the FAA. Those regs include keeping the planes away from the spectators. I haven't watched any video on this, yet. Were the planes running close to the grandstands? Or, was this a freak accident wherein the plane covered A LOT of ground before going in? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #30 September 18, 2011 QuoteI've got a stupid question. I thought airshows are heavily regulated by the FAA. Those regs include keeping the planes away from the spectators. They are and they do (for the most part). http://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_safety/airshows/ http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/airshow/waiver/ Here's the one that goes into some painful detail about the layout of the event area. http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/5899ACA707D02F8B862569DD00768601?OpenDocument Although this wasn't an air show; it was a race and these planes are traveling very fast and if they are out of control they're eventually going to come down somewhere. Air race attendees sit outside the race course, but that's not a 100% guarantee of safety since an aircraft out of control departing the course is going to exit tangentially and not stay over the ground track of the course. Essentially, no place is really 100% safe, nor can it ever hope to be if you're actually going to watch the race with your own eyes. Yes, this was very much a freak accident though.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #31 September 18, 2011 >Just that little tab was enough to cause such a huge change in pitch? Yep. Some aircraft are "flown" with trim tabs completely - the elevators are free to swing, and the pilot controls the trim tabs which move the control surfaces. A trim tab problem can instantly create a massive amount of back or forward pressure on the elevators, one that the pilot may not be able to compensate for. That motion of the elevator may also generate a G-loading that rapidly takes the pilot out of the equation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #32 September 18, 2011 QuoteJust that little tab was enough to cause such a huge change in pitch? WOW! There's going to be some speed at which a plane is trimmed neutrally, where if everything is set up OK, no up or down trim is needed. Slow down, and you'll need nose up trim to be able to maintain 1G upright flight, without constantly hauling back on the stick. Speed up, and you'll need nose down trim to prevent the plane from rearing up or having to keep pushing the stick all the time to fly level. That's the way planes normally work. In some small, light planes without a lot of speed range, if you don't trim, it isn't that hard to push or pull the stick to stay level. Annoying over a longer time, but doable. But in faster, heavier aircraft, control forces to hold the plane level can build up a lot as speed changes. Stick forces depend on a lot of things, including aircraft centre of gravity, and I have no idea what a race modified P-51 is like. But if you're going fast, 400+ mph, you might have a lot of forward trim input to fly level. Lose that trim tab and the aircraft may pitch up at high G... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #33 September 18, 2011 Here's a link to a close up video of the impact area right as the aircraft crashed. You don't see the crash, but about ten minutes of footage as they try to help the victims. You can also see the spot where the aircraft hit the ground, the top layer of asphalt appears knocked away. Warning: there's a little gore. (There's a close-up of a victim lying on the ground with an amputated leg.) The crash happens just after the 39:00 minute mark. http://www.livestream.com/loadedtv/video?clipId=pla_b2efcd7d-ed04-4edf-89e8-f21ff436ccb4It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maxmadmax 8 #34 September 18, 2011 Here's a link to a bit of history behind the pilot and the airplane. http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201105#pg36 Don't go away mad....just go away! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 3 #35 September 19, 2011 http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v03%20tech%20admin/chapter%2005/03_005_001.pdf I just got home from a long drive. If I'm reading this correctly. They let spectators get awfully close (500 feet) to the "Aerobatic Contest Box." I thought the minimum was 1500 feet. Which still sounds too close for a race. I've never been to one of these races. Those planes do what, 400+MPH? That's >500FPS. I see your point about having to accept some risk to be able to see the event live. These recent tragedies make me wonder if regulations requiring bunkers are in the offing. Thank You for replying w/the pertinent links, & for explaining it to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Designer 0 #36 September 19, 2011 The Video was "Just plain Sickening"Mechanical failures are a pilots "Worst Nightmare" at very high speeds.Thinking it's way past time that these guys need low altitude ejection systems?Speed boat cockpit separation systems and parachutes save lives.$ to be made now? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #37 September 19, 2011 QuoteThinking it's way past time that these guys need low altitude ejection systems?Speed boat cockpit separation systems and parachutes save lives.$ to be made now? Can't really be done with vintage aircraft not designed for it. An ejection system wouldn't have changed the outcome here much. As for being a pilot's worst nightmare, maybe, but I think most are resigned to the realities of what they do and have weighed the risks just like anybody else ought to in any extremely dangerous sport. The people I'd feel the worst for are the folks in the seating area and their survivors that hadn't ever really thought about it before.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Designer 0 #38 September 19, 2011 I had the pleasure and very distinct "Terror" of flying right seat in a Beech 18 for a high speed low pass over our club house way back when at 250+mph.No room for any mistakes or failures of any kind!The what if "Factor" of what could have happened kept me from ever doing it again.Just can't imagine the terror at almost twice that speed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dninness 4 #39 September 19, 2011 Something to consider, too: The Reno course is something like 8.5 miles around. The spectator area is like 500 ft across. Its not precisely the old "golden BB," but its close. Yes, there are places where the racing line "sweeps" the spectator area (mostly coming out of that last turn), but its pretty quick. That video is pretty incredible from a bunch of standpoints: the response of people, both spectators, first responders and race officials/course workers, and the absolute destruction of that P-51. The only "intact" thing I saw out of any crash sequence video so far was the engine.NIN D-19617, AFF-I '19 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #40 September 19, 2011 >I had the pleasure and very distinct "Terror" of flying right seat in a Beech > 18 for a high speed low pass over our club house way back when at >250+mph.No room for any mistakes or failures of any kind! Eh, whuffos think the same of us screaming towards earth at 120mph. Only seconds from death! No room for error! A single failure will put the final stamp on your death certificate! In general there's a lot of margin in aviation, even when it seems there isn't. It is (fortunately) extremely rare to see incidents like this one, even in aircraft that are decades old. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,490 #41 September 19, 2011 QuoteI had the pleasure and very distinct "Terror" of flying right seat in a Beech 18 for a high speed low pass over our club house way back when at 250+mph.No room for any mistakes or failures of any kind!The what if "Factor" of what could have happened kept me from ever doing it again.Just can't imagine the terror at almost twice that speed? Speed is life. At 500mph you've got a large margin of error for a lot of failures, even at 50 feet off the deck.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #42 September 19, 2011 QuoteSpeed is life. At 500mph you've got a large margin of error for a lot of failures, even at 50 feet off the deck. Departure of a control surface just doesn't happen to be one of them.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #43 September 19, 2011 QuoteSpeed is life. At 500mph you've got a large margin of error for a lot of failures, even at 50 feet off the deck Speed is also death. The closer you get to VNE, the less margin of error you have for certain failures. It's a two way street where you have to factor in stall speed, manuvering speed, VNE, and the pilots ability to withstand G forces. Somewhere in the middle is the 'safe' speed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #44 September 19, 2011 The public reception of this crash is expected, but that makes it even more annoying. What whuffos should take away from this crash: 1-this crash into spectators is incredibly unlucky. The course is several miles long, 360 degrees around as well as 3 dimensional(as opposed to a race car track). The chances of the Plane hittng the <1% area with spectators were pretty small. 2- the crash airplane was not an "old" airplane. That mustang was so heavily modified that it no longer could be considered a mustang. The age of the airplane is NOT a factor. (the Reno races could very likely shut down as a direct result of this) 3-if a NASCAR crash ended up with 50 non-driver fatalities it would barely effect the future of the sport. Maybe a regulation on a better crash fence to protect the crowd. The Reno Air Races are pretty Awesome, but it is -obviously- dangerous. The simple fact you're some idiot who thought going and sitting within a mile of unlimited class near-mach race airplanes was just as safe as watching football on tv means your opinion has no value. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #45 September 19, 2011 http://www.jcs-group.com/racin/living/deaths.html Some more info about deaths in auto racing for comparison.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #46 September 19, 2011 Like all aspects of life, sometimes it just ain't your lucky day.... We are all on track for that day, at some point in time.... C'est la vie......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #47 September 19, 2011 QuoteThe simple fact you're some idiot who thought going and sitting within a mile of unlimited class near-mach race airplanes was just as safe as watching football on tv means your opinion has no value. Who are you talking to here?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #48 September 19, 2011 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44576019#44576019 Was the tailwheel out? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #49 September 19, 2011 Quotehttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44576019#44576019 Was the tailwheel out? See post #17"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #50 September 19, 2011 QuoteQuotehttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44576019#44576019 Was the tailwheel out? See post #17 thanks. What kind of fuel and fuel load would he have had? Anyone? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
