davidw 1
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I used to hit the road all the time. riding for Team Harrisburg and did Velodrome. Rode to Pittsburg on Rte 30. Now these days I'm afraid to ride with my son down to the Town Park. Blind curve intersections and crossing town roads that turn to State routes...people do 50mph everywhere. It only takes a split second= POW! life is changed for the victim and all the knew them. I got an e-mail from Ian Bellis a few hours prior to a car jumping the curb and killing him. I will never forget that. It's not all about ME but, my family that will suffer if I'm killed. I love them too much not to be hyper cautious. Traffic scares the CRAP out of me.
_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/
QuoteWe wouldn't need to do battle with 3,000 lbs machines if people would respect the laws, our rights, and quit tweeting, texting, racing, talking, programming their Garmins and jacking off behind the wheel.
True enough. Seems that people become someone else when they get behind the wheel of a car.truck. People who otherwise wouldn't hurt a fly can become wrecking/killing machines when the car door closes. Assholes.
And, OTOH, too many are laying in the road broken up saying "I was in the right!"
QuoteYou have a responsbility while driving that loaded gun.
...and that applies to much more than dealing with cyclists of any type.
QuoteNobody said bikers were immune to that. Just like skydiving we try to minimize those rists.
The smarter ones do, I'm sure. Too many stand on "rights" and disregard personal safety.
QuoteMotorists are the absolute biggest threat to cyclists.
Mix them together and I would agree. But according to the paper submitted above, Obstacles on the sidewalk appear to be the bigger threat.
QuoteCyclists pose no real threat to motorists.
This I would argue in the sense that cyclists doing stupid shit quite often gets the car driver some jail time. Never mind the anguish of having hurt someone.
QuoteI would like someone from the anticycling community to share what it is that really frosts your balls about cyclists. If that 5% of bad cyclists obeyed the law would that help or do you just hate people who wear spandex and enjoy the goodness and comraderie that comes from cycling.
Not anti-cycling here. Not at all.
What frosts my balls is people doing stupid shit. And that applies across the board, not just to cycling. I don't know about that 5% number because my gut feeling, based on personal experience, says more than that are "bad" riders. I have to distinguish between "cyclists" and "riders" here. They both like to ride bikes but I like to think cyclists know what they are doing. It's by far and away, IMO, the "riders" doing the stupid shit.
Face it guys, just like any other endeavor, it's that idiotic minority that gives the entire community a bad name. We see it in skydiving all the time.
Be careful out there. Respect the fact that you are dealing with idiots and don't be one yourself.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteI used to hit the road all the time. riding for Team Harrisburg and did Velodrome.
Woohooo! I love watching that stuff. Them guys are heroes in my book. Open wheel racing on two wheels with no roll cage....Yikes!
QuoteIt only takes a split second= POW! life is changed for the victim and all the knew them.
...and for everyone involved regardless of who was at fault.
QuoteTraffic scares the CRAP out of me.
Which is why I don't ride bikes in the road.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Mostly, I think that it's a game of consequences...
If we ride on the pavement (sidewalk) - the chances of hurting pedestrians is high - you can't cycle at walking speeds that's just daft, a bit like the old cars going at walking pace with a guy with a flag in front
If we ride correctly (within the laws, courteously and with common sense!!!) on the rode and ALL other vehicle drivers drive correctly (within the law..etc...) then all is well, the consequences are that everyone gets to their destination in the manner of their choice - Cloud Cuckoo-land!!
If we ride correctly on the road we can get hit by any vehicle driver who is NOT driving correctly - bad consequence for us - minor niggle and scratched paintwork for them - Way too many of them seem to 'get away with murder' - the law slaps their wrist instead of coming down HEAVILY on them each and every time. If everyone knew that before they got behind the wheel - Understood that there are consequences - then once again life would be good for all.
We need to educate EVERYONE and get folks to treat others with RESPECT (not sure if that word is even in the dictionary anymore
) or let them know in no uncertain terms, that they will be shat on from a great height if they step out of line.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
davidw 1
***The argument that fuel taxes don't pay the whole cost of the road is irrelevant. Just because you pay a portion of the tax doesn't mean you get to do whatever the fuck you want with the right of way. Part of my taxes pay for the capitol building too, but I don't think I have a right to walk in there and start a football game whenever I want- the dominant use should prevail and be protected.
QuoteYou should be careful with your dominant use argument or you may not be allowed to skydive anymore.
davidw 1
Yes, I get it that bicycles have a right to be in the road- and ever since the internal combustion engine, it is long past time to change that! I would support a law prohibiting bicycles in any road with a speed limit over 25 MPH*. The logic is clear in this- we already have laws prohibiting pedestrians on the interstate, taking the bikes off faster streets over 25 MPH is a logical extension.
Sounds like skydiving?QuoteTo clarify the law already prohibits bicycles on "Interstates". If you feel strongly about restricting bicycles then exercise your right to promote laws doing that (Good luck). Also, next time referendums come on the ballot to promote the use of tax dollars for pedestrian / cycling infrastructure please vote yes. It would be appreciated.
***I can't wait for someone to get all indignant while finding a creative way to dodge the fact that it is against common sense for objects of greatly varying speeds to play together.
Just for balance and for those who think it's all one-sided:
http://moultrieobserver.com/local/x670930795/Bicycle-rider-injured-in-Sunday-crash
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_92c2067c-d1ba-11e0-8fa8-001cc4c03286.html
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/128386158.html
http://www.arlnow.com/2011/08/16/bike-accident-involving-police-car-along-custis-trail/
Use your common sense people.
http://moultrieobserver.com/local/x670930795/Bicycle-rider-injured-in-Sunday-crash
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_92c2067c-d1ba-11e0-8fa8-001cc4c03286.html
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/128386158.html
http://www.arlnow.com/2011/08/16/bike-accident-involving-police-car-along-custis-trail/
Use your common sense people.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
jakee 1,489
QuoteYes, I get it that bicycles have a right to be in the road- and ever since the internal combustion engine, it is long past time to change that! I would support a law prohibiting bicycles in any road with a speed limit over 25 MPH*. The logic is clear in this- we already have laws prohibiting pedestrians on the interstate, taking the bikes off faster streets over 25 MPH is a logical extension.
It's an extension, sure, but it's not logical. What you are suggesting would kill, stone dead, an entire sport that has millions participants nationwide. I went for a 50 mile training ride yesterday afternoon, with your suggestion I would have been able to go approximately 50 yards. There would also be no way to put bike lanes on the large majority of those roads without a comprehensive road widening scheme. I wonder how deep you'd be willing to dip into your pocket for that.
Sure, you can push for more the nanny state to override my decisions on my own safety if you want but a) fuck you and b) enjoy your even more morbidly obese nation
QuoteJust because you pay a portion of the tax doesn't mean you get to do whatever the fuck you want with the right of way.
And you don't have the right to reserve the entire public roadway for your personal choice of transportation.
QuoteI think Billvon got close with the comparison to swooping.
How about a comparison with GA? How do you feel when pilots try to force established DZs off shared airports?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
jakee 1,489
QuoteWhere's the disagreement? What he said was logical and straightforward....including a common sense approach to it all.
Where's the agreement?
He says Drew's study is good, you say it's avoiding the big picture.
He says learn the laws, you say ignore the laws.
He says motorists should get used to sharing with cyclists, you say cyclists should get on the sidewalk.
He's saying basically what me, Remi, Champu, Ryoder and others have been saying all along, you've been arguing with us for several pages.
QuoteIt's just you I'm fucking with....and you still don't have a clue as to why.
I think I've got a pretty good idea. Is it because you're an immensely petty individual who has no idea when to let go of a grudge?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
jakee 1,489
QuoteNot anti-cycling here. Not at all.
What frosts my balls is people doing stupid shit. And that applies across the board, not just to cycling. I don't know about that 5% number because my gut feeling, based on personal experience, says more than that are "bad" riders. I have to distinguish between "cyclists" and "riders" here. They both like to ride bikes but I like to think cyclists know what they are doing. It's by far and away, IMO, the "riders" doing the stupid shit.
Except from everything you've posted on this thread, you appear to think that the classification of 'rider' should be applied to any one who chooses to cycle on the road.
Which is absolutely ridiculous.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
davidw 1
This applies to all road users...right?QuoteJust for balance and for those who think it's all one-sided:
Use your common sense people.QuoteWhat you presented is again one sided. Look at all the zeroes of people injured and killed by bicyclists. Where are the links to reports of bicyclers and cyclists injured/killed by motorists.
Popsjumper , you have been posting a lot on this thread. What do you want to see happen? What are your solutions? Has anything that we have posted made any sense to you or has this just been a pissing contest? I take this issue very seriously since my life is on the line every time I get out on my bike.
davidw 1
Popsumper, these people made bad decisions and in some cases broke the law. Laws that are there for their protection. They paid a price. The motorist might be out the cost of some touch-up paint.
What I and others are concerned about is that we can obey every law in the world and still be mowed down by a dumb fuck in broad daylight. How do we minimize those risks? Telling us all to leave the roadway is not the answer. That's almost akin to telling victims of drunk drivers that they should not have been on the road. The answer can only be a combination of education and law enforcement.
What I and others are concerned about is that we can obey every law in the world and still be mowed down by a dumb fuck in broad daylight. How do we minimize those risks? Telling us all to leave the roadway is not the answer. That's almost akin to telling victims of drunk drivers that they should not have been on the road. The answer can only be a combination of education and law enforcement.
ryoder 1,590
QuoteTo clarify the law already prohibits bicycles on "Interstates".
CO provides a state roadmap map for cyclists which categorizes the roads. Riding on the interstates is prohibited only when there is no alternative nearby parallel road. I have ridden I-70 between MM 252 & 254 a number of times. There is no other way to get from Hwy 40 to Bergen Park. It is really a non-issue. The paved berm is as wide as a traffic lane.
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.
kallend 2,026
QuoteJust for balance and for those who think it's all one-sided:
http://moultrieobserver.com/local/x670930795/Bicycle-rider-injured-in-Sunday-crash
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_92c2067c-d1ba-11e0-8fa8-001cc4c03286.html
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/128386158.html
http://www.arlnow.com/2011/08/16/bike-accident-involving-police-car-along-custis-trail/
Use your common sense people.
Indeed.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
davidw 1
***
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In Reply To
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To clarify the law already prohibits bicycles on "Interstates".
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CO provides a state roadmap map for cyclists which categorizes the roads. Riding on the interstates is prohibited only when there is no alternative nearby parallel road. I have ridden I-70 between MM 252 & 254 a number of times. There is no other way to get from Hwy 40 to Bergen Park. It is really a non-issue. The paved berm is as wide as a traffic lane.
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In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To clarify the law already prohibits bicycles on "Interstates".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CO provides a state roadmap map for cyclists which categorizes the roads. Riding on the interstates is prohibited only when there is no alternative nearby parallel road. I have ridden I-70 between MM 252 & 254 a number of times. There is no other way to get from Hwy 40 to Bergen Park. It is really a non-issue. The paved berm is as wide as a traffic lane.
QuoteThank you. I was not aware of that. Wish me luck I need to get in a quick 30 tonight before the sun goes down.
QuoteUse your common sense people.
QuoteThis applies to all road users...right?
Yes, indeed it does! Everyone on the road. Cyclists, pedestrians and drivers alike
Popsjumper , you have been posting a lot on this thread. What do you want to see happen? What are your solutions? Has anything that we have posted made any sense to you or has this just been a pissing contest? I take this issue very seriously since my life is on the line every time I get out on my bike.
I have been posting on behalf of car drivers. You bikers came across as stuffing drivers with all the causes and that's far from the truth. Only a couple of you have acknowledged any responsibility of your own. Yes, most of what you guys posted makes sense. What doesn't make sense is putting most of the blame being put in drivers. What doesn't make sense is insisting on exposing yourself to added risk by refusing to take safer options when you can.
The pissing has come from the cyclists. For example, asking for a little common sense while riding generated some really thoughtless commentary as opposed to thoughtful reflection. Geez.
Taking the opposing view and putting it out there. Geez, some of you guys sure got wadded over that!
"Damn you for looking at this from any angle other than 'we are right'."
Taking this issue seriously is a major point. That isn't being done when people are whining about their rights, whining about different points of view, getting all wadded up when a question asked doesn't pan out as being a help and wanting to argue as opposed to discuss. Few of the whiners have even mentioned what drivers go through when they they get into an accident with a cyclist. It's called empathy and only a very few of the posters have expressed any at all. Some seem to think that driver's and their families are beneath consideration.
Solutions? More bike lanes? More bike lanes off the roads? Banning cyclists from certain roads? Cyclists doing a better job of educating their own? Drivers doing a better job of educating their own? Everybody using more common sense instead of standing on "rights".
Here's one that will never fly and will surely generate some hateful rhetoric - How about a tax on cyclists to be used for adding bike lanes to more roads?
Why has it been so hard for so many to understand such a simple concept - do what you can to decrease your risk? Ahhhhh...it's an emotional issue for many and emotions quite commonly over-ride everything else.
OK...I'm done here. Either some get it or some don't. Sorry jakee. You still don't.
Now you can return to your normal programming.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
BrokenR1 0
QuoteSolutions? More bike lanes? More bike lanes off the roads? Banning cyclists from certain roads? Cyclists doing a better job of educating their own? Drivers doing a better job of educating their own? Everybody using more common sense instead of standing on "rights".
Here's one that will never fly and will surely generate some hateful rhetoric - How about a tax on cyclists to be used for adding bike lanes to more roads?
Yes, sidewalks are an alternative when they are legal, exist, and long enough without being interrupted by streets or busy with people.
More bike lanes would be nice but bike paths would be better. If I wasn't already paying a tax for those things as well as taxes for the bicycle itself more taxes might be a valid option. Or if bikes cause the same amount of wear, upkeep, or support more taxes might be valid as well.
Everyone needs to abide by their responsibilities but I think this thread was started with accidents where the bicyclists were behaving properly.
Understandably I have to acknowledge the reality of safety issues but I should not have to or be expected to give up my rights based on the incompetence of others.
Know what your rights and responsibilities are.
Know what the reality is.
In the end I will not give up my freedom for the illusion of safety. I usually say that primarily about my gun rights but I guess it applies here as well.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.
jakee 1,489
QuoteThe pissing has come from the cyclists. For example, asking for a little common sense while riding generated some really thoughtless commentary as opposed to thoughtful reflection. Geez.
Thus demonstrating that you haven't listened to a single word anyone else has said.
It has been explained to you many times (and backed up with stats which you yourself acknowledged) that what you thought was common sense was not only wrong but actually counterproductive.
QuoteTaking this issue seriously is a major point. That isn't being done when people are whining about their rights, whining about different points of view, getting all wadded up when a question asked doesn't pan out as being a help and wanting to argue as opposed to discuss.
My word, you really don't listen to yourself, do you?
The people arguing with you on this thread are not whining about rights. They're telling you that your 'common sense' suggestions would actually make cycling more dangerous. But despite having bugger all experience and zero first hand knowledge of the matter you have steadfastly ignored and continually deliberately misrepresented those opposing arguments just so you can cling on to your pre-conceived notions and act smug.
Wanting to discuss? Do me a fucking favour
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
davidw 1
Yes, certainly emotions run high on both sides. I've seen it on the streets and in forums over and over again. I also agree that cyclists should choose their routes wisely and obey the laws. Same for motorists.
Since the laws are what they are, please obey them while you work for whatever change it is you desire. Even if you disagree with the law you should still be made to conform to it. If it is true the FL accident that started this thread was alegedly caused by a distracted young driver killing a man while riding in a designated bike lane. If this is true then laws have been broken which resulted in an unnecessary death of a fine indvidual.
You mentioned a couple times about the trauma inflicted upon the driver in circumstances like this. Give me a break. You break the law and kill someone and witness their lifeless broken body bleeding in the roadway you should be traumatized. NO, I DO NOT have much empathy for such people and I would not expect much empathy for myself if I took the life of an innocent human.
As far as the driver's family? What about the victim's family? I don't think you have addressed that issue with any of your posts.
Tax cylists? Honestly go for it. Change the law. Make a proposal. Lobby for it. Contact your leaders. Understand the cost of admintrating and enforcing it. Know that you would need to register your kids tricycle if they used the bike path. You may even need to pay to get that tricycle inspected. That's not "hateful rhetoric" is it?
All right..I'm done too. Please be careful out there and treat each other with respect.
Since the laws are what they are, please obey them while you work for whatever change it is you desire. Even if you disagree with the law you should still be made to conform to it. If it is true the FL accident that started this thread was alegedly caused by a distracted young driver killing a man while riding in a designated bike lane. If this is true then laws have been broken which resulted in an unnecessary death of a fine indvidual.
You mentioned a couple times about the trauma inflicted upon the driver in circumstances like this. Give me a break. You break the law and kill someone and witness their lifeless broken body bleeding in the roadway you should be traumatized. NO, I DO NOT have much empathy for such people and I would not expect much empathy for myself if I took the life of an innocent human.
As far as the driver's family? What about the victim's family? I don't think you have addressed that issue with any of your posts.
Tax cylists? Honestly go for it. Change the law. Make a proposal. Lobby for it. Contact your leaders. Understand the cost of admintrating and enforcing it. Know that you would need to register your kids tricycle if they used the bike path. You may even need to pay to get that tricycle inspected. That's not "hateful rhetoric" is it?
All right..I'm done too. Please be careful out there and treat each other with respect.
Rick 67
QuoteQuoteHave you ever passed, on the right, a string of cars stopped for a stop light....and then wondered why the guy turning right on red cut you off?
Yeah, that's a pretty rookie mistake. You have to look for both turn signals and "body language" to figure out if and how many cars may be turning right on red as you approach lights. I also slow down and slot in as I approach a line of cars that is starting to move so I'm never along side a car as it starts accelerating.
The one thing I can't figure out is why so many people tend to list over into the curb / right part of the lane as they slow to a stop in a line of cars. 5 mph? plenty of room to get by them. 2 mph? they look like they're parked against the curb. This is more annoying than dangerous though.
I have a question. If the cyclists are supposed to obey the rules of the road like all other vehicles why are they allowed to pass a line of cars that is stopped at a light on the right? Should they not get in line with the other vehicles?
You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!
ryoder 1,590
In the interest of lightening up the discussion (maybe NSFW): http://thechive.com/2011/09/02/babes-on-bikes-what-a-simple-yet-brilliant-concept-28-photos/
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.
Quote
I have a question. If the cyclists are supposed to obey the rules of the road like all other vehicles why are they allowed to pass a line of cars that is stopped at a light on the right? Should they not get in line with the other vehicles?
Dunno what the law states, but when I was riding I always considered this a point of courtesy to drivers. I agree that it is infuriating as a motorist to have to pass the same bicycle again and again.
Here in Tucson, I am not bothered by it as much since it's an INCREDIBLY bicycle friendly city and nearly every non-residential road has a dedicated bike lane.
Elvisio "placekeeper" Rodriguez
champu 1
QuoteI have a question. If the cyclists are supposed to obey the rules of the road like all other vehicles why are they allowed to pass a line of cars that is stopped at a light on the right? Should they not get in line with the other vehicles?
California is odd. It's not illegal to pass someone on the right (even in a car so long as you don't leave the roadway) like it is in some states. Also, you can share lanes on a bicycle provided the lane is wide enough.
That said, it's a really bad idea to go screaming by cars and continue passing them even after they're started moving. You have to appreciate what you're doing.
Nobody said bikers were immune to that. Just like skydiving we try to minimize those rists.
Motorists are the absolute biggest threat to cyclists. Cyclists pose no real threat to motorists. Check out the stats on that and bring them to the table.
I would like someone from the anticycling community to share what it is that really frosts your balls about cyclists. If that 5% of bad cyclists obeyed the law would that help or do you just hate people who wear spandex and enjoy the goodness and comraderie that comes from cycling.
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