World Trade Center attacked

[freeflir29 0]

"I like mountainman's suggestion of sending out a video to the Middle East of ben Laden taking it up the ass."
That's pretty funny. I don't know how effective it would be....but none the less funny. I just don't believe you will change any hard line fundamentalists mind. Period. In the face of that reality the only alternative is to cause such pain, suffering, and death to cause them to wonder about the future of their race. When there are but a few left this may change their mind. If it doesn't......just kill them too and the problem is solved. This incident has garnered some pretty amazing support already. We have condemnations from Afghanistan and Iran that I know of. I'm sure there are others. This is probably out of fear of retaliation. The Taliban no more wants Osama Bin Laden any more than we want them to keep him. It's the people of the country that have insisted he not be turned over. Who is the enemy now?
For the record I doubt Bin Laden had all that much to do with this attack. I think the Taliban has probably kept him under wraps trying to keep their country out of trouble. The only problem is the Western media has so demonized him that he has now become a symbol of terrorist actions everywhere. He certainly is part of a movement that inspired these acts and may have helped to fund them but I doubt he had much of any direct role. I still hold Afghanistan responsible for supporting terrorism. It's a well known fact that it is THE place in the world for Jihad training. There are plenty of other countries turning a blind eye to what goes on. It's high time we force those out there that directly support or passively allow terrorist activities to pay for it in lives! As we already have.
"We must kill them. We must exterminate them. Pig by Pig, Cow by Cow" -Apocolypse Now
Clay

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

When there are but a few left this may change their mind. If it doesn't......just kill them too and the problem is solved

This is exactly what I'm saying can't be done. I admit it sounds like a tidy solution, but in reality there are ALWAYS survivors. If not in the country you target, then abroad.
By the way, which country would you have us attack? Afghanistan? (some people are also saying Iraq may have been involved)
My point is that whichever country you pick, there will be other sympathizers in other countries. I do NOT think it's realistic to think you can kill everyone who hates the West. And if you believe they're too hardcore to change, they also won't be frightened into backing down by a lot of killing, since one of the tenets of the jihad is that glory & heaven are achieved by death in battle against infidels.
I think its more realistic and more effective to change the whole image of the terrorists (and conversely, the West) in the eyes of the people of Middle East.
Historical basis for my belief: The failure of the USA in Viet Nam as I've already explained. This is what happens when we ignore the minds and the will of the people we're dealing with, and try to solve a problem w/ sheer brute force.
And as for your belief that hard core attitudes can't change: Look what happend in Iran. In 1979 and for many years afterwards, they were total fanatics. Remember all the "Death to America" chants? But over time they changed as a younger generation took over that was more accepting of the Western world. Yes, I'm sure there must have been a few old timers who still hated the USA, but the point is they would be unable to inspire or have the moral support of the people of Iran. (Just as here in the USA there are still a few Ku Klux Klan, but they have no real power b/c most Americans despise them).
History proves that especially in the modern world of mass communication, you have to win over the minds of the people to achieve real & lasting change. The idea that you can end terrorism by simply killing off everyone who hates the USA is not realistic.
Speed Racer
"Come up to my lab,
And see what's on the slab!"

[Michele 1]

Hey, Speedy

Quote

I think its more realistic and more effective to change the whole image of the terrorists (and conversely, the West) in the eyes of the people of Middle East.

Can you change someone's mind about something as simple as a brand of dishsoap which their mother used, and their mother before them? How do you change the image? If, to us in the "free world", the image is horrific, but in the origination country the image is holy, how do you change that? Make them more horrific? Won't that make them more "holy"?
And, while I can't find it to bracket quote it, you refer several times to "changing their mind".
How do we do that? I am really curious as to how we could go about changing someone's religious beliefs and tenents, as well as the non-religious but subjugated persons in the country (The Taliban runs the country in Afghanistan...).
As for waiting for the younger generation to grow up, that's a great idea. Except, it is the younger generation which is doing this (the two named terrorists are 31 and 32). Granted it is the "older" generation which is instilling this ideology in the younger generation, but it's cultural, I think, rather than individual choice...if it is what you see, daily; if it is what you hear, daily, with prayers; if it is how you will get to meet God, as is taught wholesale to the children in school; how do you change this?
Speedy, I really am asking this honestly and sincerely. I am not asking to instigate something, or to call into queston your beliefs and ideas. Please take the above in that spirit (and anyone else who is reading this).
Ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[chickenhawk420 0]

Skreamer, nimbus and speed racer i couldn't agree with you more- I wish bubba and bin laden a happy marriage. But clay i couldn't disagree with you more, you would always have surrvivors (and other nationalities and religious people who would be turned against the US by this) and when the smoke clears the fundalmentalists resolve would be strengthened further... all those martyrs dying for the course. The only way is to look long term, hope is in the children of these countries that have not been programmed and taught this (i too have seen the iranian youth making there own minds up and fighting for themselves against the regime and ideas- and western ways are more accepted- despite the social condemnation young girls are choosing for themselves that they don't have to live solitary lives until family chooses but can have male friends without the terrible problems arissing) But im not looking to a western world i just want people to be able to choose there own routes and if like them you beleive you are on the religous winning team then don't get scared at others ways of doing things, if they are right in their views then live their lives accordingly and we will be judged in heaven (what ever your name is for it) and you will be proved there. For those like myself who arn't religous, don't beleive in the typical enity of god (well won't follow any organised religion because it causes all this shit and i feel they've lost sight of anything they were working for) let us live our life coz if we are wrong then so be it, i lived my life my way you can't do much more than that. Killing all of them will not stop this from happening again, it will not stop others from hating again because of the US actions, its a circle so stop the round abouts.

[freeflir29 0]

I hate to tell you this but I still don't believe you will ever change anyones mind until there race/religions survival is in question. They believe that they have Allah on their side. They also believe that ultimately they personally haven't killed anyone but Allah has guided their hands. It's very foreign thinking to most westerners. I dont expect people to understand. I'm not willing to let many many more innocent WESTERN civilians die while waging a propaganda war. I still stick with "Kill em all, Let God sort em out" Coexistance on this planet is impossible. It is not a peaceful world we live no matter how much we would like it to be.
"We must kill them. We must exterminate them. Pig by Pig, Cow by Cow" -Apocolypse Now
Clay

[SpeedRacer 1]

Clay,
I still don't understand. Kill who, exactly?
Speed Racer
"Come up to my lab,
And see what's on the slab!"

[freeflir29 0]

OK...lets start in Afghanistan. We make a deal with Masood. I.E. Massod (Tiger of Panshir) Leads the only credible opposition group in Afghanistan. If he agrees to not harbor terrorism and keep friendly relations with the US lets support him. Our troops along side his and overthrow the Taliban. Leave him in power to run the country. Then it's off to Iraq. Hook up with the Kurds. Which we screwed to the tune of 7,000 dead soldiers just after the Gulf War because a CIA field agent promised air support that would never come. He never had any plans for it to come. He just lied to get them to attack Sadam. Let the Kurds run Iraq. Then a jaunt to Israel where we assist the Israelis in stomping out all opposition in Palestine. That one I don't like but at least we would be rid of a common enemy. That would be a good start and I'm sure we would have all new directions to go by the time these actions were finished. Oh, and let's not forget doing something real in Colombia. Stop screwing around down there.
"We must kill them. We must exterminate them. Pig by Pig, Cow by Cow" -Apocolypse Now
Clay

[JDBoston 0]

I think we may be missing the forest for the trees here: when people have adequate food, shelter, sex, and some amount of peace, they don't spend as much time trying to kill others. Right or wrong, I think people in a number of other countries like to blame us for their problems (war, famine, depressed economies, etc.). If these problems were directly addressed and mitigated by them, us, or someone else, I have a sense that a lot of the hostility would go away.
I'm not saying we should respond to attacks by sending out food drops and hookers, but I think everyone needs to open their eyes to the fact that a group's political beliefs (and the amount of suffering they're willing to endure and inflict for their leaders) are often strongly affected by their economic/material circumstances and can thus be changed over time.
Unfortunately, I know this takes the fun out of the idea that some people are permanently and irrevocably different and dangerous to us and the only solution is to exterminate them. Perhaps the Psych majors here (I know we have a few) would like to chime in.
Joe

[freeflir29 0]

Ummmm...so what are your suggestions? Financial aid...promise "40 acres and a mule" to all those that promise not to kill us? Yeah....this sounds like an excellent plan. All through the cold war I dont think the Russian ruling elite were in any financial hardship. Were they our friends?
"We must kill them. We must exterminate them. Pig by Pig, Cow by Cow" -Apocolypse Now
Clay

[SpeedRacer 1]

I don't know about the Palestine thing. it's always seemed to me that the shit flies back & forth constantly between Israel & Palestine. If anything Israel kills more Palestinians than vice versa. And the Palestinians really do have legitimate complaints about the way they've been treated.
But as for Afghanistan. I don't believe the Taliban gov't was directly involved or even wanted this to happen, b/c right now they're probably shitting cinder blocks. They've said that they will hand over ben Laden if there is sufficient evidence that he is guilty in their opinion. Everyone try not to laugh here.
Problem is, ben Laden could easily know we're coming to Afghanistan & split for Tahiti or something.
I guess I agree with you that we could flush out the Taliban regime. But we wouldn't have to bomb Afghanistan all to hell like we did with Iraq. Afghanistan is no Iraq. It's a little poor goat-fucker of a country. The idea of the USA, NATO, Russia, and everyone going to war against Afghanistan is kind of like a pride of lions attacking a mouse. Seems to me we could pretty much just evict the Taliban, hopefully without a lot of bloodshed. Unfortunately, what has always happend when we have ousted one asshole & put another one into power in his place? The new one maybe our ally today, but in a few years what do you think will happen?? Anyone else getting Deja Vu??
AS for Iraq. I didn't agree when we began the war in '91, but once we were in it, I figured we were committed & should just see it through. We achieved our first objective of freeing Kuwait, but there's a strong argument we should have finished the job re. Saddam Hussein.
Problem is, how do you recognize him? Every male Iraqi between the ages of 35 -65 looks exactly like him! Same build, same hair, mustache, everything!
Anyway, we need to have the rest of the world with us whatever we do. There needs to be a world consensus behind our actions, otherwise when we go up against another country one-on-one it just looks like two assholes fighting & it isn't clear to the outside world who is on the side of justice.
We have that consensus now & we should use it wisely. If it is ben Laden, we could probably get everyone to overthrow the Taliban, but I don't know if we could get a consensus about Iraq unless there's some evidence that they were involved in this incident.
Speed Racer
"Come up to my lab,
And see what's on the slab!"

[JDBoston 0]

Clay,
The ruling elite are rarely in financial difficulty in any country, even in Sub-Saharan Africa which is just one big mess. Their goal in every country (naturally, when you think about it) is to keep amassing wealth and power while directing the anger of the population at other targets, such as other countries with different belief systems.
People like Hitler were good at seizing on popular discontent and a feeling of inferiority/insecurity and channeling it into hatred for other groups of people as a means of increasing their own power. Saddam Hussein and Qaddafi still seem to be in power after all the bombing and economic starvation we threw at them. That's because people in the street there hated (and probably still hate) our guts and both leaders knew how to inflame those feelings and keep them focused on the US.
If we start causing widespread misery in a country that hasn't even formally declared war on us, even if we bring them to their knees, there are a couple of post-war scenarios. One is like Japan where we have to reconstruct their government, run their country for 7 years, and pour in billions of dollars. Another is like post-WWI Germany where we create the perfect environment for another pyscho to rise to the top. I don't know exactly how we can feel avenged and still avoid both of these scenarios. But I would like to see us at least make an effort. And it will require some thinking because the enemy here is a fundamentally different kind of animal than in either of those two examples.
Joe

[freeflir29 0]

"there are a couple of post-war scenarios. "
Or you can just let them starve and rot.
The Taliban is caught in the middle. They don't want Bin Laden any more than we want him there but the people would hang them if they turned him over. Say Again! THE PEOPLE. For once the people are our enemy...not the government. Oh well...if they can't control the populace too bad. Being a "mercenary" from US soil is a tricky business. You better know who you are working for and make sure it is in line with the "State Departments" "guidelines. If not you may very well find your ass in a sling! I site the recent listing of the AUC(Colombia) as a terrorist group. I know people that have worked for them in the past but would bet they wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole now.The US government polices it's own when it comes to international affairs. Not always rightly but they at least try. The Taliban has done little in this arena. I don't think they leant any major support to this act but none the less provided a training and marshalling area for the attack. Someone must be held accountable. This will not end in a week or month or even the next 5 yrs. It's going to continue with tit for tat attacks for a lomg time to come unless we take some MAJOR steps to intimidate those that are against us. The only way to do this is break their human spirit. They must be beaten until they give up and are so broken it will take 30 years or better to recover. It's not nice it's the truth. Otherwise civilians will continue to die.
"We must kill them. We must exterminate them. Pig by Pig, Cow by Cow" -Apocolypse Now
Clay

[nimbus 0]

To freeflir29...
re: 'I still stick with "Kill em all..."'
Isn't that something called genocide?
That is not a solution.

[freeflir29 0]

"Isn't that something called genocide?"
BINGO WE HAVE A WINNER!
Not really...it's only considered genocide if you kill an ENTIRE race. I'm not saying kill all...just most.
"We must kill them. We must exterminate them. Pig by Pig, Cow by Cow" -Apocolypse Now
Clay

[nimbus 0]

Much of the human spirit has already been broken in Afghanistan. Witness the hundreds of people fleeing the country as asylum seekers. Something should have been done about the Taliban long before this. They are in violation of human rights, and the people who live in the areas they control are in a constant state of oppression. This is especially so for the women. Women cannot go out in public unless accompanied by a male relative. Women must wear the full veil burqa. Women are executed for showing parts of their body. Women can no longer work, attend school or even speak in public. Women die as they are only allowed to be treated by female doctors (the only women allowed to work) or old male doctors. Other doctors are not allowed to touch them. The moral police make random and violent raids to ensure the extreme codes of behaviour set by the Taliban are adhered to. These people were already Muslim prior to Taliban rule, but they did not live according to these extremist beliefs. Resistance groups in outlying areas are fighting the Taliban.
Most Muslims do not adhere to this extreme belief system. A lot of what westerners think of as Muslim practice is actually a cultural practice. Female circumcision in north Africa is practiced by Christians as much as by Muslims. There are Muslims in many countries that are not Arabic - Indonesia, in countries like Yugoslavia etc, and China has a massive Muslim population in the west.
I'm just trying to say not all Muslims are indoctrinated with extremist beliefs. And do you really not think indoctrination occurs in western democracies, in more subtle forms?
We should be angry at terrorists. We should also be angry at oppression.
Larsissa

[skreamer 1]

Quote

Oil wasn't involved in Korea or Vietnam or Croatia or Bosnia or....

Korea and Vietnam happened as a result of the Cold War. Nato had some very good reasons for getting involved in the Serbo-Croat crisis (as in they understandably didn't want that conflict spreading to Europe). If the world needs a super-power to keep stability and protect us from maniacs like Bin Laden then fine. But you can't police selectively, ie ignore genocide in one country, while rushing to the aid of another country (which happens to be oil-rich) on *humanitarian* grounds. That kind of hypocrisy makes me sick.
When people see images of little kids starving in Africa they get all upset and send money. When one tribe decides to wipe out another tribe in Africa, the world stands back and doesn't interfere in their *domestic affairs*.
If you sit back and wait for legal action to run its course (yeah right), you will have a nation suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. And I'm sorry but looking at the pathetic mess that is the Lockerbie trial, I have zero confidence in a legal settlement to this.

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Yes Clay, lets kill level the middle-east.... you cant be sure of gettinmg rid of terrorism without that....
then, les get rid of all asians to make sure none of the dooms day cult is left behind
the europeans: there's those neo-nazis running around London and other big/small cities, cant have those... (lets not forget the IRA and ETA)
Sorry to say, but we really should get rid of the Blacks in America just in case some Black Panthers are still active
Those white extremists in the States sealed the fate of the rest of the North American population I'd say...
Shinning Path and other groups in South America, lets nuke the whole continent..
Sorry to use sarcasm at a time like this guys, but this aint the world I want to live in....
Yes somethings needs to be done, but reading words like "genocide" makes my skin crawl in a BIG way....
Remi
Muff 914

[freeflir29 0]

OK....why doesn't everybody just sit around in circles smoke some weed and sing peace songs then. I hate to tell you but the killing has just started. It will be many years before it stops. Once again, just stating the facts. The fog of war is already upon us. We are searching in the dark, trying to make out targets from the shadowy figures that pass. Right now, everyone claims to be appalled and horrified by these events. Nations will crumble. Let it not be mine. To that end I personally will do whatever is necessary. I have some pretty strong opinions about the US government. I very often don't agree with the way my government goes about it's business. I'm sure I will have major disagreements about how this action unfolds. America is still the greatest country in the world. It will stand as long as I draw breath. To that end I will do whatever is necessary. If it is to wipe entire nations and take millions of lives. So be it.
"We must kill them. We must exterminate them. Pig by Pig, Cow by Cow" -Apocolypse Now
Clay

[RemiAndKaren 0]

'nuff said.....
Remi
Muff 914

[DZBone 0]

Oh, I've missed some great stuff here.

Quote

...I still don't believe you will ever change anyones mind until there race/religions survival is in question. They believe that they have Allah on their side. They also believe that ultimately they personally haven't killed anyone but Allah has guided their hands. It's very foreign thinking to most westerners. I dont expect people to understand. I'm not willing to let many many more innocent WESTERN civilians die while waging a propaganda war. I still stick with "Kill em all, Let God sort em out" Coexistance on this planet is impossible.

Allow me to rephrase from another perspective:
"...I still don't believe you will ever change their minds until their race/religion's survival is in question. They believe that they have Jesus on their side. They also believe that ultimately they personally haven't killed anyone but Jesus has guided their hands. It's very foreign thinking to most Muslims. I dont expect people to understand. I'm not willing to let many many more innocent ISLAMIC civilians die while waging a propaganda war. I still stick with "Kill em all, Let Allah sort em out" Coexistance on this planet is impossible."
Sounds like it could have come from a bin Laden fatwah, no? Clay, you are clearly an extremist, which is your right as an American, but you should know that makes you on the same wavelength as them, only using different labels.
America is a greater culture than this, don't you think? The Founding Fathers created the next-generation society that is based on individual freedom, free markets and TOLERANCE. We have this revolutionary idea that people can and should think for themselves, even if you don't agree with them. We also have rule of law and a "big stick".
From an eariler post:

Quote

It is Christianity or Islam now. Islam has been in Jihad for years. Now maybe the Western leadership will wake up. This I pray for.

There is another option, which is to allow religious freedom, judge individuals based on their actions, not their beliefs, punishing them for what they do, not what they think. I think the Constitution covers this pretty well, IIRC. Otherwise, you are only substituting one religion for another. You need to solve the McVeigh problem as well as the bin Laden one.
Someone else already covered this, I think, but when the OKC boming occurred, why wasn't there a call to kill all the white, protestant military veterans?

[SpeedRacer 1]

We also have to consider the motivation behind these attacks. It wouldn't be realistic for the terrorists to expect America to be too frightened to respond. You don't just frighten off a country like the USA.
Also consider that the attack was not designed in any way to harm America's military capabilities.
Considering these facts, it's most likely the plan was this: Perform an attack on America that causes the USA to lash back in a blind rage. The USA will use its massive military strength to launch an all-out attack on some Islamic country (i.e. Afghanistan). In the process the USA will kill thousands of innocent Muslim civilians. The other Islamic nations will become enraged at this and support us and our cause. And together, we will defeat the Great Satan.
In short, I believe that the motivation behind the attacks was to elicit not fear, but blind, murderous, rage.
I believe that there must be some military response to this, but it has to target terrorist organizations specifically. I would also support the overthrow of governments who support them, but the fighting would have to be focused as much as possible on the military and government forces, in such a way that the government could be replaced with another one (i.e., the Northen Alliance in Afghanistan). But we have to be very careful that in our military response, we do not wind up doing the bidding of the terrorists.
And our long term solution must be to keep after terrorist organizations where ever they may be, and also to change the way we interact with the Muslim world. Specifically, we must address the legitimate greivances of the Palestinians vs. Israel in a way that makes a difference and helps to ensure a homeland for both the Palestinians and Israel. I know, easier said than done. But we can't keep going on as we have before. We cannot make this a war against Islam.
And incidentally, jihad is not a religious mandate for every Muslim to run out and kill every non Muslim. It is a mandate for defense against an attack against the faith. We have to make this a war on terrorists, not on Islam. This whole "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out!" thing sounds cool on a bumper sticker, but it's no way to act in the real world. I think there must be a distinct line separating our attempt at peace and cooperation with the Muslim majority in the world, and our war against terrorist organizations. This line has already been drawn by Muslim leaders in the USA and throughout the world, who have denounced the attacks and said whoever did it violated everything a true Muslim must stand for. And I believe that to be on the side of what's right, and to continue the support of decent Muslims, we have to recognize and address the legitimate grievances of the lslamic world.
Incidentally, I think that these people who are going around attacking innocent Muslim Americans and Americans of Middle Eastern origin, should be treated as terrorists themselves. Islam is not the enemy. Terrorists are the enemy, regardless of their so-called "faith".
Speed Racer
"Come up to my lab,
And see what's on the slab!"

[skreamer 1]

I concur, well put Speedy!
That was a very well thought out, well written post and made a lot of sense to me.
Will

[Aviatrr 0]

Speedy,
I agree with most of what you said....everything, except this:

Quote

Also consider that the attack was not designed in any way to harm America's military capabilities.

Doesn't the Pentagon have something to do with military actions? Doesn't the White House(one suspected target of the plane that crashed in PA) have something to do with military actions?
Maybe these attacks were not meant to affect the militarys capabilities in the terms of firepower - but certainly it was meant to affect the military in the terms of leadership.. Taking away the leaders will, at least for a short time, greatly harm the capabilities of a military force..
Mike

[chickenhawk420 0]

Props to speedy

[des 2]

speedracer wrote "you just don't scare off a country like usa".
so why was all aviation stopped for days ,and still some are not operating,seems to me someone is scared.
we are giving these assholes the result they want,i.e total disruption,.and economic chaos.,while in real terms accomplishing zero.
i rea`lly think the powers that be f----ed up, and the reaction should have been,"f--- you bastards ,we're just gonna carry on,and we will be coming to get you.".
--but i aint no politician.
des