Comprehensive Pre-Nuptial Agreement

[davjohns 1]

So...I was thinking...if I were to try the long term relationship thing again...what do I want? Should I put it in writing?

That reminded me of a piece I saw on television years ago. A couple had a pre-nuptial agreement that laid out exactly how their marriage would be run. It specified who had what chores, what time they would get up in the morning and how often they would have sex (among other things). I specifically recall the sex part. He wanted at least 3 times per week. She wanted no more than 5 times per week. The agreement specified 3-5 times per week.

While I'm not sure a legally binding document is romantic (lol), I think a couple bent on long term connection should discuss things in very specific terms. Placing it in writing could help them understand exactly what the other's expectations are. Of course, things change over time, but there seems to be some usefulness there.

My ex taught a pre-marital counseling course at one time. I reviewed the material and told her I didn't think it was really as helpful as it could be.

It seems to me that properly constructed pre-marital counseling would offer ways to manage money and have the couple choose how they would do it. They should put together a workable budget. Finances are a huge cause of break-ups, afterall.

It seems to me that there would be some discussion of when to have a child. Maybe who should do what chores should be discussed. What do they think about the woman being a stay at home mom when the time comes? And any other potential flash point should be discussed and some initial decisions made.

I told the ex that my idea of counseling (designed to promote a life-long marriage) would cause some couples to realize they were not as compatible or in-synch as they thought. Some would decide not to get married. It seems that having to sign a document that outlined certain decisions ahead of time would make people think about what they are doing. Not necessarily a binding agreement, but an agreement nonetheless.

If a person had their ideas written down to begin with, it could be a useful tool when talking to someone about compatibility earlier in a relationship as well.

Yeah. I know. I just took all sorts of romance out of the whole thing. And I am, at heart, a romantic. But I can't help thinking a relationship that involves the heart and the mind is much more likely to keep both happy in the long run.

Thoughts?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Southern_Man 0]

I am even less romantic than you.

I do think that good communication (and very explicit about the kind of things that you mention) is an outstanding way to build a long term relationship.

Marriage, however, is not really about a long term relationship. It is a property contract. Nothing more and nothing less. Good communication and sharing within a relationship can exist regardless of whether the couple is married or not. In order to fit w/ my (*cynical) view of marriage, all of those conditions would need to have financial penalties and rewards attached to them. Fail to have sex 3 times in a week? Lose rights to 10% of the joint property, etc.

Relationships, yes. Marriage, blah, you can keep it.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Shotgun 1]

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I specifically recall the sex part. He wanted at least 3 times per week. She wanted no more than 5 times per week. The agreement specified 3-5 times per week.

Sorry to go on a tangent here, but.... I always find it weird when couples know how many times per week they have sex, though many do. Is it some sort of regularly scheduled thing, like going to the gym?

[Muffie 0]

I like the concept of having discussed these things up front, but the problem with setting them in stone is that people change over time. For example, one of my friends had no interest in kids when she got married. Flash forward a few years and her sister had a kid and suddenly my friend really wanted one. Another buddy of mine got divorced because his wife didn't want kids and then a couple years later she had a kid with someone else. People change.

And what about illness? I mentioned it in another thread, but I've known more than one couple that had to put sex on hold due to health issues with one or the other partner. Do you throw that contract in someone's face and say "you agreed to three times a week and I don't care that you're in the ICU right now, it's in the contract"? Not if you love them you don't, IMO.

I (not having been married and not being a relationship person) think the key is finding someone you can work through things with over time. And I think central to that is having a core set of values in common.

You don't know what life will throw your way, but you can be pretty damn sure it isn't going to be what you expected.

[happythoughts 0]

a big pan of buttered popcorn and a soft drink will be ideal.

[anthonyfellows 0]

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I specifically recall the sex part. He wanted at least 3 times per week. She wanted no more than 5 times per week. The agreement specified 3-5 times per week.

Sorry to go on a tangent here, but.... I always find it weird when couples know how many times per week they have sex, though many do. Is it some sort of regularly scheduled thing, like going to the gym?

Insane!

Serious relationships turn into work after a few weeks and I already got a fucking job :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
H.A.F. = Hard As Fuck ... Goddamn Amateurs

[anthonyfellows 0]

Why put anything in writing? Total waste of time unless you're getting married again. Hopefully you've learned your lesson and wished you wouldn't have did it the first time.

Serious relationships turn into work after a few weeks and I already got a fucking job :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
H.A.F. = Hard As Fuck ... Goddamn Amateurs

[happythoughts 0]

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Why put anything in writing? Total waste of time unless you're getting married again. Hopefully you've learned your lesson and wished you wouldn't have did it the first time.

I plan to get a pre-nup that guarantees me half of
her assets if we divorce.

"What? I'm not signing something like that."

"...but honey... it only applies if we get divorced.
If you don't believe that we will be together forever,
maybe we shouldn't get married."

It's just a test. A true believer will sign.

(I know, it only sounds silly when men say it.)

[anthonyfellows 0]

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Why put anything in writing? Total waste of time unless you're getting married again. Hopefully you've learned your lesson and wished you wouldn't have did it the first time.

I plan to get a pre-nup that guarantees me half of
her assets if we divorce.

"What? I'm not signing something like that."

"...but honey... it only applies if we get divorced.
If you don't believe that we will be together forever,
maybe we shouldn't get married."

It's just a test. A true believer will sign.

(I know, it only sounds silly when men say it.)

Yeah ... That's a smart idea. But isn't he talking about putting shit in writing with someone that you've just been dating for awhile? That's what I meant by a total waste of time. It's just fucking insane.

Serious relationships turn into work after a few weeks and I already got a fucking job :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
H.A.F. = Hard As Fuck ... Goddamn Amateurs

[davjohns 1]

I meant if you had to write something down, you would have put some thought into it. You would be able to talk about things rationally. I didn't mean you ask someone on a date and hand them paperwork to sign. Sheesh!

If you know what you want, it might make it easier to keep your heart from making all the decisions. But mostly, I was curious what people thought about putting things in writing at a much later point in a relationship, like living together decision time.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[amstalder 0]

I think if putting it in writing is the only way to discuss the things that are important in a lifelong commitment (marriage or not), YOU ARE NOT READY TO BE MARRIED TO THAT PERSON. Seriously, if you're getting married, you should have already discussed these things BEFORE you made that decision.

And seriously, I do many of the chores around the house because it makes me feel good to be taking care of my husband. My husband does some of the chores as a surprise for me or when I am not feeling well, etc. We both love these things about the other. But to put in writing who does what chore and when, would really just make it a chore in my mind, and likely would just piss me off everytime I did that chore.

Don't get me wrong, I am merely a newlywed, and by no means an expert, but if making a contract is the only way to discuss the big ticket topics, I think there may be a few problems.

[TriGirl 333]

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I meant if you had to write something down, you would have put some thought into it. You would be able to talk about things rationally. I didn't mean you ask someone on a date and hand them paperwork to sign. Sheesh!

If you know what you want, it might make it easier to keep your heart from making all the decisions. But mostly, I was curious what people thought about putting things in writing at a much later point in a relationship, like living together decision time.

And here I was thinking Shah hijacked your username! I agree with your views on counseling, though. You have to take time to discuss (at length) these things well before you have to deal with them.

To Happythoughts: why do you think I never got married? Everything I have is mine, and I've never given someone else a house.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[davjohns 1]

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I think if putting it in writing is the only way to discuss the things that are important in a lifelong commitment (marriage or not), YOU ARE NOT READY TO BE MARRIED TO THAT PERSON. Seriously, if you're getting married, you should have already discussed these things BEFORE you made that decision.

And seriously, I do many of the chores around the house because it makes me feel good to be taking care of my husband. My husband does some of the chores as a surprise for me or when I am not feeling well, etc. We both love these things about the other. But to put in writing who does what chore and when, would really just make it a chore in my mind, and likely would just piss me off everytime I did that chore.

Don't get me wrong, I am merely a newlywed, and by no means an expert, but if making a contract is the only way to discuss the big ticket topics, I think there may be a few problems.

I really want to agree with you on this. It just seems wrong. But I find that we sometimes expect people to be normal and reasonable; only to find that the person we have been seeing has a totally different idea of what normal and reasonable is.

I was married. I found out after we got married that there were a whole host of things we never even thought about. For instance, who is responsible for making sure we have enough money to pay the bills and actually paying the bills? I thought we would do it together (I was so naive). She thought her job was to spend however she wanted and I should figure out where the money would come from. I actually never got her to help me pay bills in almost 20 years of trying.

I now think that at least a list of things to discuss in depth could be helpful.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[happythoughts 0]

writing everything down is valuable as long as...
everyone is honest. "well...i generally agree, but we can discuss it again later" is not the same as agreeing.
nobody changes.

the purpose of such writing is to get a framework of guarantees.
"these are the things that make me happy. guarantee that they will continue forever".
the problem is people. not only the other person, but the input of their family and friends in the future. they will change their expectations.

even if people are initially honest, there is no guarantee.
that is just life and relationships.

if anyone ever says, "my friend says...", the response is, "if i start dating them, i will take it into consideration".

[rehmwa 2]

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writing everything down is valuable as long as...
everyone is honest. "well...i generally agree, but we can discuss it again later" is not the same as agreeing.
nobody changes.

the purpose of such writing is to get a framework of

Posting this as a pre-nup is not really what we're talking about, it's more that a couple should sit down and be very specific on what they want and need and compare that to what the other wants and needs. Doing it in an organized fashion helps them figure out if they are really are starting out with the right person.

I'd call it a "compatibility analysis"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Southern_Man 0]

Writing it down is just a tool. It may help some people, it may not. Some people (ideally all) would be able to do the same thing just by talking to each other openly and honestly.

Lots of people don't do that for lots of reasons. Many people lack self-awareness. Many people are afraid to say what they really think because they think their partner will reject them for it. Many people do not know the issues that systematically cause discord and unhappiness in relationships.
Writing it down could address at least one of those factors but can not address the other ones.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[popsjumper 2]

Meh...contracts were made to be broken. It's the American way.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Niki1 1]

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[anthonyfellows 0]

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.

I really want to agree with you on this. It just seems wrong. But I find that we sometimes expect people to be normal and reasonable; only to find that the person we have been seeing has a totally different idea of what normal and reasonable is.

I was married. I found out after we got married that there were a whole host of things we never even thought about. For instance, who is responsible for making sure we have enough money to pay the bills and actually paying the bills? I thought we would do it together (I was so naive). She thought her job was to spend however she wanted and I should figure out where the money would come from. I actually never got her to help me pay bills in almost 20 years of trying.

I now think that at least a list of things to discuss in depth could be helpful.

[shah269 0]

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I specifically recall the sex part. He wanted at least 3 times per week. She wanted no more than 5 times per week. The agreement specified 3-5 times per week.

Sorry to go on a tangent here, but.... I always find it weird when couples know how many times per week they have sex, though many do. Is it some sort of regularly scheduled thing, like going to the
gym?

YES! If I'm ever dumb enough to do it again I will have a prenput and in said prenup there will be a fixed number. 3 times per week sounds good to me!

Why? Simple! You women are a little bat shit crazy when it comes to sex. You either turn it off...or use it as a weapon. Seen it happen to many people I know. She has one dumb idea to get back at the guy because he forgot one thing and before you know it....he's pissed and she's pissed.
And she has no idea why she cut off the poor SOB in the first place but she will be dead long before she says she is sorry.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Roxxx 0]

sign by the X, sign by the X, sign by the X...

bunch of babies... fight'n over stupid shit.

The 'he said, she said, they said' and the system in place that makes money off it...

Ya, do it. It entertains the powers that be, the ones we can't see.

boogaddie boogaddie! Fear, is great for "prophet" lol, kidding

(Wow, these morning hours kick my arse!

[Roxxx 0]

I should add...

I avoid all the documentation with my ex because, in my experience, he just twists it or claims he didn't understand it... Ignorance is bliss, documentation can be used for you, AND/or against you.

Where have all the adults gone?

"Adult/Status" is a matter of experience, not age. My traveler and skyding rule... (Is there a better term? Maybe, "Asshole Status" muff, mufff, mufff)

Blue Skies!

[shah269 0]

Don't kid yourself, these little contracts hold their own in court.
In theory you can have it that no matter how things go no one will take any of your shit!

And as a guy that's a good thing.
I can't tell you the number horror stories I've been told!
Everything from "The bitch didn't work for 5 years, no kids, no nothing and I still had to pay her fat ass $50k" to my personal favorite "She put me on a sex diet, then accused me of cheating, then took the kids, the house and 50% of my 401k and 50% of my income."

The system for a lack of a better word is designed to screw your average guy. Other than this legal contract a man has nothing to defend himself when it comes to a divorce! Just shy of catching her with her boy toy on film she has all of the power in a divorce.

The best thing I ever did in my married life was not to have kids AND I got lucky in that my condo is underwater by $30k. So when I told her to go pound sand.....she really had to do it! Or I could have told her "Ok le's sell this condo and you can eat $15k in losses!"

If you are a man, and you have any money or think you will make any money or intend to ever own any property or may find property and intend to hold on to it, I HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU WRITE ONE OF THESE UP!

A simple, "We leave with what we brought into this union" should be sufficient. But I would suggest you go into further detail indicating what property is yours and yours alone. Be it house, car or retirement funds. Furthermore include language that covers things such as her employment and providing "significant assistance" when it comes to paying bills and don't be a pussy about including things such as sex and adultery and kids.

2 years ago, if you had asked me I would have given you a Zen answer about how the universe will provide if you and your partner love and respect one another.....that was then and this is now! Don't be a dumb ass! Protect your ass!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[davjohns 1]

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sign by the X, sign by the X, sign by the X...

bunch of babies... fight'n over stupid shit.

The 'he said, she said, they said' and the system in place that makes money off it...

Ya, do it. It entertains the powers that be, the ones we can't see.

boogaddie boogaddie! Fear, is great for "prophet" lol, kidding

(Wow, these morning hours kick my arse!

Friends don't let friends drink and blog....I have no idea what you were trying to communicate here. Apparently getting things in writing does NOT help communication.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Roxxx 0]

I'm not drinking. I'm always like this.

But, sorry, let me go cubicle woofo thinking to clear my thoughts up...

I have found that if a conflict comes up, documentation can be usless, or useful (against a person; negative view imo).

Documentation can set limitations for a person, or it can cut a path to follow...
I like wandering off the beaten path.

I'd rather have a clean canvas to work with.

Blue Skies, good luck