Another in air Vigil fire in DeLand (3/19)?

[Ron 10]

I have a report from DeLand that another Vigil fired this past weekend (3/19) while the main was being deployed.

It was reported that it fired at 2500 feet.

Any info?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kimgriffin 0]

Not a rumor.... Solly William's (from DeLand Majik) had a Vigil fire at 2090 ft after his main had just gotten open. He landed the 2 parachutes without incident.

What happened? The Vigil had been reset in to Tandem mode (unbeknownst to Solly). Solly, being a busy coach and competitor and DZ manager never noticed that his Vigil said TANDEM on the display. In fact, it was in tandem mode for at least the past 14 jumps. (The Vigil keeps the last 16 min of freefall in memory.)

I downloaded Solly's Vigil jump info through the IR reader this morning and reported my findings back to him. He said his gear is looked at by other people and left in the team hangar. How it got in to tandem mode is unknown.

Oh yeah, 2040 ft. is the preset firing alt for tandem mode.

~Kim Griffin
Vigil USA
DeLand, Fla

-Kimberly Griffin

[Ron 10]

Wow, thanks for the fast answer.

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What happened? The Vigil had been reset in to Tandem mode (unbeknownst to Solly).

How hard is it to change a Vigils mode?

Can it be done on accident?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 4]

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How hard is it to change a Vigils mode?

Can it be done on accident?

Ron,

I think the question is how hard is it to check your gear before putting it on? He didn't notice it for 14 jumps, that sounds like maybe "complacency" to me. But I could be wrong.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mark 107]

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How hard is it to change a Vigils mode?

Can it be done on accident?

Hello Ron!

The probability of changing Vigil mode by accident is vanishingly small.

Start-up is like Cypres (push the button when light comes on), except it takes two pushes to get a Vigil interested in starting up, vs just one push for a Cypres.

Llike Cypres, the unit does a self-check at start-up. Cypres-1 and Cypres-2 both have count-downs; Vigil shows in sequence "Bat OK", "Cut OK", and "Ctrl OK".

After this initial start-up, Vigil offers an opportunity to change set-up (altitude offset, Pro/Student/Tandem), check info (serial number, jump logs), or change configuration (meters/feet, display flip, contrast). To change do any of these, you must press the button while the option is displayed. If you do nothing, no changes are made. When you are done, the display shows "Pro", "Student" or "Tandem", or the initial (P, S, or T) and the altitude offset).

Sequence and timing are important. Just bumping the rig or pushing the button a couple times is not enough. The chance of pushing the button at exactly the right time to access the set-up menu and then Pro/Student/Tandem sub-menu are, IMHO, about the same as turning a Cypres on or off accidentally.

Many thanks for excellent tunnel coaching this past weekend.

Mark

[Ron 10]

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The probability of changing Vigil mode by accident is vanishingly small.

OK thanks for the info. Makes me wonder what went on then.

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Many thanks for excellent tunnel coaching this past weekend.

You did great, and I had a blast....

BTW did my Cat D this morning.

Also, didn't know your flew Helos....Im just learning...wanna see me look really stupid? Watch me fly the robbie.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Glandu 0]

Could it be that the Vigil switched from Pro to tandem mode accidentally? it's a computer after all and bugs do exist, doesn't they?

[Glandu 0]

"Vigil fire at 2090 ft after his main had just gotten open. He landed the 2 parachutes without incident."

Does it mean that after a fully inflated canopy, Solly's fall rate was still at 78 mph or more???(speed at which the Vigil will fire.)

[skydiverton 0]

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Not a rumor.... Solly William's (from DeLand Majik) had a Vigil fire at 2090 ft after his main had just gotten open. He landed the 2 parachutes without incident.

What happened? The Vigil had been reset in to Tandem mode (unbeknownst to Solly). Solly, being a busy coach and competitor and DZ manager never noticed that his Vigil said TANDEM on the display. In fact, it was in tandem mode for at least the past 14 jumps. (The Vigil keeps the last 16 min of freefall in memory.)

I downloaded Solly's Vigil jump info through the IR reader this morning and reported my findings back to him. He said his gear is looked at by other people and left in the team hangar. How it got in to tandem mode is unknown.

Oh yeah, 2040 ft. is the preset firing alt for tandem mode.

~Kim Griffin
Vigil USA
DeLand, Fla

A phrase from the most famous dutch soccer coach:
Each disadvantage also has an advantage.
I think at the moment you can read this the other way around.

By the way I already warned for this "rabit in the hat" as early as begin of 2004.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[kimgriffin 0]

Vigil fire at 2090 ft after his main had just gotten open. He landed the 2 parachutes without incident."

Does it mean that after a fully inflated canopy, Solly's fall rate was still at 78 mph or more???(speed at which the Vigil will fire.)

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I could have worded that more clearly... sorry. The Vigil fired just after Solly pulled so, yes, he was still going over 78 mph when it fired. It's just that he noticed his reserve coming off his back after his main had opened.

~Kim Griffin
Vigil USA
Sales Mgr

[AndyMan 7]

Have their been any discussions over modifying the unit such that it can only be switched to Tandem mode when the rig is open - IE, by a rigger?

I can see some value in being able to easily switch between Expert and Student mode, but being able to switch to Tandem mode on a whim seems incredibly odd.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[MarkM 0]

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I can see some value in being able to easily switch between Expert and Student mode, but being able to switch to Tandem mode on a whim seems incredibly odd.

Yeah, but if you made the tandem mode switch different than the student/pro mode, then you're opening up another possibly route for a flaw to hit the system.

[AndyMan 7]

Ok, then if they can't do it, then put the student/expert switch inside, too.

It's perfectly reasonable, and a whole lot more desirable than accidentally switching it to Tandem mode and not realising it.

If Solly Williams can accidentally put it into Tandem mode without realising it, so can I, and so can someone just off student status who doesn't know their gear as well as they should.

Humans are not infallible. Devices should be designed to minimize the opportunity for human error.

That said, I suspect the engineers can come up with a way to limit it from Tandem mode without opening it up. Engineers are smart.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[cbennettjr 0]

It should have been caught on an equipment check. It is quite obvious what mode it's set on. Lets not have some knee-jerk reaction to something that training should cover.

[Ron 10]

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If Solly Williams can accidentally put it into Tandem mode without realising it, so can I, and so can someone just off student status who doesn't know their gear as well as they should.

From what I have been told it seems very unlikley that you could change the mode by accident.

Now I'm not saying this is the case here, but one reason I didn't like the ability to use one unit with an easy mode change is the chance that someone could change it after you armed it for the day. This could lead to a two out and a very dangerous situation. A packer in DeLand a few years ago found her risers cut on a repack. I know several others that have had gear tampered with.

NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE HERE...But it is one reason I don't like the ability to change the mode.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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It should have been caught on an equipment check. It is quite obvious what mode it's set on. Lets not have some knee-jerk reaction to something that training should cover.

You wanna know a secret?

After I arm my CYPRES, I don't check it on every jump now that I am out of the military.

I doubt very few people do.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AndyMan 7]

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It should have been caught on an equipment check. It is quite obvious what mode it's set on. Lets not have some knee-jerk reaction to something that training should cover.

I'm sure Solly Williams has more than enough training, and knew full well how to arm, set, and inspect his Vigil. He's a member of one of the hottest 4-way teams around, after all. Still, he managed to miss it.

If he can manage to do it, so can I, and so can you - no matter how much training we've had.

Complacency is the core issue here, not training. It's clear that he should have caught the error, but he didn't. Every one of us is capable of making the same mistake.

Because human nature is what it is, gear should be resilliant to human error whenever possible. There is no advantage to having the Tandem switch available to the jumper.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Praetorian 1]

accident or no, anyone worried about a Vigil in a tandem rig being switched to expert? or student?

I check my cypers before every jump ... its hard to miss being right next to where I check by Reserve pin.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Ron 10]

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accident or no, anyone worried about a Vigil in a tandem rig being switched to expert? or student?

Yes, However I do check the CYPREs on my gear check before a Tandem jump....

Why on a Tandem and not my personal rig?

Well I arm my CYPRES (If that rig has one) on the first gear check of the day. I watch the unit cycle down to Zero. The unit will not turn on if there is a problem or not enough battery to run the whole cycle.
I also have no problem jumping without a CYPRES on my personal rig.

Now I don't have a Tandem rig of my own so I am using the same rigs others are using. I can't be sure that the unit was turned on at the start of the day (I also might be the first to jump the rig that day). Plus I have someone elses life in my hands. They pay me to be as safe as possible for them, and all tandem makers require an AAD to be in operation....I also use an RSL on Tandem rigs and will not on my personal rig.

The ability to change modes is a kinda neat feature...But I personally don't like it being able to be done from the control unit.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

From details on the Argus thread, it looks like they've choosen to make the different available modes a rigger option. Perhaps a better way to go - people aren't going to bounce between regular and novice settings anyway.

[Ron 10]

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From details on the Argus thread, it looks like they've choosen to make the different available modes a rigger option. Perhaps a better way to go

I like the multi mode idea...But I really like the idea of it only being able to be changed with the pack open.

I BTW have never really like the idea of a "Student CYPRES."

Just use the PRO and teach people how to deal with a MAL....Which raises a question for another post.

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people aren't going to bounce between regular and novice settings anyway.

Im not so worried about bounces, I am more worried about double outs.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

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people aren't going to bounce between regular and novice settings anyway.

Im not so worried about bounces, I am more worried about double outs.

Bad choice of words. I meant that the great majority of users won't be changing modes often, if ever. Someone might buy the unit with their first rig on the novice setting, and then alter it to normal mode. Doesn't seem to be a reason to switch back (harkens back to the 'I'll be fine, I got a Cypres' type issues).

[MarkM 0]

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Bad choice of words. I meant that the great majority of users won't be changing modes often, if ever. Someone might buy the unit with their first rig on the novice setting, and then alter it to normal mode. Doesn't seem to be a reason to switch back (harkens back to the 'I'll be fine, I got a Cypres' type issues).

Dropzone rental gear may also be the student rigs, so that would be a reason to switch from normal to novice modes.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Yes, However I do check the CYPREs on my gear check before a Tandem jump....

Why on a Tandem and not my personal rig?

I can't believe you do not check the reserve/AAD on your sport rig.

You should be checking to see that the AAD is still turned on. They can turn off.
You should be checking the reserve pin in case it got bent.

I found two bent reserve pins on someone else's gear. One was about 30 seconds before exit. "What ever you do Joe (made up name) don't cutaway!" He rode the plane down. The other was on an AFF evaluator's rig after I packed it. I brought the evaluator and the two candidates over to see the rig. It might have happened on exit (C-182), but more than likely it happened during the dirt dive when the wing and step are closer together.

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The ability to change modes is a kinda neat feature...But I personally don't like it being able to be done from the control unit.

Maybe - maybe not. How many instances will occur for this feature to be put to use?? I can see maybe a DZO wanting to swap an AAD between a student rig and a tandem rig once in a great while. Maybe on rental gear? Most places use the expert level anyway. Other than that when would this feature be used? In a pinch, you could use the offset landing elevation feature to adjust when an AAD fires. I do not recommend it, but it is a possible solution.

Even if you had a switch on the inside, what would you do if it was set wrong? You'd have to open up the reserve to change it. Remember, if it is possible to do something it may eventually happen. Ask any equipment manufacturer that. It's not like riggers never make mistakes.

All you have to do is think about all the problems of switching between direct bag SL and a FF rig for students.

You might also recall that the FXC 12000 had a way to set what altitude it would fire at. On the ride up the needle disappears. There were numerous operator errors of changing the setting while airborne.

IOW, the feature of changing the activation altitude, either by Modes or offset elevations, introduces other operator failure modes, even though it might appear to be more convenient.

As to Solly's rig, I do not know how it was set into Tandem mode. From the posts and the manual it appears to not be an inadvertent hitting of the buttons.
That would indicate, somewhere along the line there was operator error.
It could be (speculation here) a potential Vigil user interested in learning about how it worked asked someone for a demonstration. Maybe the person giving the demonstration changed modes and then turned the AAD off or left it in Tandem mode. The Vigil remembers altitude corrections and the mode. Perhaps the person giving the demo did not realize that. Solly still gets 2 demerits for not checking his gear and so do you, Ron, if you are not checking it on your sport rig.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Ron 10]

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I can't believe you do not check the reserve/AAD on your sport rig.

You should be checking to see that the AAD is still turned on. They can turn off.
You should be checking the reserve pin in case it got bent....Solly still gets 2 demerits for not checking his gear and so do you, Ron, if you are not checking it on your sport rig.

I'll take the demerits...And here is why.

I check my reserve pin, and get a pin check in the plane. However, about the AAD. The CYPRES, and I assume the Vigil is the same, will not turn on if it has an issue.

But my main reason for not checking it after I turn it on is I don't care. If it were on or not I would still jump. If it was a jump I would not do without an AAD, I don't do the jump at all.

So I do check my pins...But the AAD is turned on (If equiped) and forgotten.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334