Driving in Snow Alert . . .

[jumpwally 0]

Thats all fine and well, but there are s times with ice that even if you put a vehicle with wheels welded so they turn and no trans, the thing will still slide down on its own, there are condtions where it don't matter what you got,,,you're gonna slide....

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[ryoder 1,590]

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I've always maintained that 4 wheel drive may get you going, but it's no advantage to stopping, which is way more important.

Not always correct;
Every vehicle has a proportioning valve in the brake system.
The purpose of the valve is to apply more braking force to the front wheels than to the rear wheels.
W/o this valve, you would always be skidding the rear wheels.
But the proportioning valve is not perfect.

Now if you have 4wd and either:
a) No center differential, (eg My Jeep Wrangler).
b) A center differential in locked mode.
then the front and rear axles are perfectly locked together, and the proportioning valve isn't even needed.

In fact one time when some asshole vandals cut my rear brake line,
my workaround (until I got it to the shop) was to keep it in 4wd.
That transferred some braking force from the front brakes to the rear axle,
so I wasn't locking the front tires on every quick stop.

On empty iced-over parking lots, I've tested this, and being in 4wd
makes a very noticeable difference in stopping distance in my Jeep.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Thats all fine and well, but there are s times with ice that even if you put a vehicle with wheels welded so they turn and no trans, the thing will still slide down on its own, there are condtions where it don't matter what you got,,,you're gonna slide....

That's correct, when you lose grip, you lose grip and it is extremely hard to find grip once it is lost on ice. I seem to recall saying something in my first post of this thread that someone should have ran up to the top of the hill to warn other drivers once it was apparent that people were having problems here. But instead I have been attacked by understeering FWD automatic car lovers. Not a problem, you peeps are the majority. Understeering FWD automatics are definitely better for the general population. Oversteering RWDs are the last thing panicky drivers should be using.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[lurch 0]

Second this.
I drive an '00 grand cherokee with an aftermarket 270 HP 4.6 stroker and BFG AT tires on it. Its like a really fast, all terrain luxury sofa. -Properly used-... the thing is near-invincible in snow. I'll take the auto jeep over a 2wd stickshift -anything-, any day. If its really, REALLY slick, putting it in 4-lo locks the front and rear shafts, autotranny in 1st and let it creep along. Stick shift or Autos got little to do with it although an Auto can actually be more forgiving if you keep it in 1 or 2, float the engine and avoid sudden throttle moves. The 4wd is a great asset both for going, and stopping, although taking advantage of the 4wd for stopping does involve a bit more deliberate technique. The jeeps got ABS but the idea is to avoid making the jeep use it. If I feel the jeep start burping the brakes it means I'm pushing it too hard for the conditions.
I live in New England and to me, driving in snow is fun and challenging. I leave anywhere from 3 to 10x normal following distance behind car in front of me, look for outs constantly and assume near-zero traction at all times. The name of the game is "Don't spin tires, don't spin jeep, don't hit anything". If I'm about to descend a slick hill I look for the edges and take advantage of any deeper snow I can find. Deliberately getting half-stuck in snowbanks and using the resistance to keep the vehicle on a tight leash. In an emergency, curbs or front yards are not off-limits. When it comes to driving in winter the tortoise always wins.
The problem isn't people in 4wd SUVs. The problem is people in 4wd SUVs who think the vehicle automatically makes them invincible and relieves them of the need to drive intelligently.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Bolas 5]

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The problem is people in 4wd SUVs who think the vehicle automatically makes them invincible and relieves them of the need to drive intelligently.

Always thought it hilarious the number of 4WD SUVs that would go hauling ass down the road in horrid conditions was usually proportional to the ones you'd see in ditches, wrecks, or upside down.

The biggest issue with rear drive vehicles in snow and ice is usually more related to the lack of weight over the wheels.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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I was flat on my back half a second after I got out of the car!

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[ryoder 1,590]

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I drive an '00 grand cherokee with an aftermarket 270 HP 4.6 stroker and BFG AT tires on

I was considering that 4.6 stroker for my '93, before I traded it in for my current 2006.
The builder claimed it required no change to the induction system,
but I was finding reports to the contrary, so I decided against it.
So what has been your experience?

+1 on the BFG AT's!
I've used them on my last three Jeeps.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The biggest issue with rear drive vehicles in snow and ice is usually more related to the lack of weight over the wheels.

Snow and ice magnifies the challenges, but learning to drive a RWD vehicle takes practice in knowing how to balance the vehicle in a turn. By temporarily shifting weight towards the front of the car following by a smooth application of power through the turn, one can ensure that enough weight is shifted back on the rears. This allows the fronts to do their thing, directionally controlling the vehicle while the rears do their thing, applying power to the road. It is a balancing act and extremely important not to panic if/when grip is lost.

I absolutely love driving on the track in wet conditions. You can actually feel what your tires are doing (something that is usually lost on a dry track). All race tracks should have sprinkler systems installed on them.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnMitchell 16]

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....I was flat on my back half a second after I got out of the car!

We love hearing that from our skydiver chiccas.

Seriously, I'm glad you didn't get really hurt. Did your car get any damage. A year or two ago, I took a corner too fast for the conditions, slid into a curb and snapped off a tie rod end. That cost me a tow truck ride and a few $$ to fix.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Every vehicle has a proportioning valve in the brake system.

Now if you have 4wd . . .then the front and rear axles are perfectly locked together, and the proportioning valve isn't even needed.

On empty iced-over parking lots, I've tested this, and being in 4wd
makes a very noticeable difference in stopping distance in my Jeep.

Interesting.
But it won't make up for stupid.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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The biggest issue with rear drive vehicles in snow and ice is usually more related to the lack of weight over the wheels.

I drove RWD vehicles in Utah for years. The key was good snow tires and a lot of weight in the trunk.

And know your limits.

[billvon 3,006]

>I will take an automatic Subaru over a stick shift any day.

Agreed. We hit a storm driving to Alta one day. By the time we got to the top, about all that were left were the more serious four wheel drive vehicles and (automatic) Subaru Legacys.

[lurch 0]

That'd be the Golen Stroker, yes? Wasn't cheap but you get a HELL of a lot of engine for the money. It'll smoke any jeep ever built except maybe a 6 liter SRT8, and it surprises the hell out of stock camaros and mustangs. Ricer punks with fartcan exhausts are easy prey.
The stroker is badass. It was a direct bolt-in, did it myself with a lot of help from a friend with a garage and some patience. It needs at least 91 octane and 24 PPH injectors. With no changes to exhaust or intake the cam and headwork give it a lovely ominous rumble, goose the gas and it barks like a raging dog.

I didn't need to change anything inductionwise. There IS a high rpm glitch, misfire on cyl.1 close to redline which I think is caused by fuel pressure dropoff due to either slightly clogged fuel filter, old fuel pump or both. The engine does have its quirks... the cam and valvetrain are heavily tweaked. The valvesprings are so strong they squeeze the lifters down when it is parked for awhile so when it is started cold it clatters and shudders till the lifters pump back up, then it runs so smooth you couldn't tell it from stock except a very faintly lumpy idle due to the cam.
The payoff is, the old 4.0 would run out of balls above 3-3500 rpm. The stroker on the other hand... open it up and it turns into a raving monster from 3-5200 rpm. If I let it spool up it actually gets more and more aggressive the higher it spins. If I shift it manually to keep the engine spooled up and restrain it from upshifting to 3rd at the first opportunity, then punch it while floating at mid rpm range it will slam you back in your seat and break all 4 tires loose on wet pavement. Yes, even those BFGs. 320 Fp torque beats most stock smallblock V-8's. The first time I heard and felt it spin the FRONT tires I was seriously impressed. The Grand Cherokee is fairly heavy but with this engine it launches like a Porsche. So far I've put 2000 miles on it and I'm quite happy with it. I once drove a late 70's T/A 6.6 and this 6 banger jeep would eat that Pontiac for breakfast.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[ryoder 1,590]

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That'd be the Golen Stroker, yes?

That's it.
I couldn't recall the name until you mentioned it.
I was looking for something to help out with the lack of power climbing I-70 up to the Eisenhower Tunnel, (~11,000MSL).

The 2006 has a 6spd vs the 5spd of the 1993, and the slightly different gear placements help, but I still find occasionally myself climbing steep sections with my foot to the floor at 3000rpm and barely maintaining 65mph.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

ROFLMAO ... I want one. If I got myself a Golen Stoker ($3600 for a 4.6L, $5000 for the 4.6L turbo or super charged version) I could track my Wrangler. Of course I would likely need to look into different brake and suspension systems.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

Quote

I drive an '00 grand cherokee with an aftermarket 270 HP 4.6 stroker and BFG AT tires on

I was considering that 4.6 stroker for my '93, before I traded it in for my current 2006.
The builder claimed it required no change to the induction system,
but I was finding reports to the contrary, so I decided against it.
So what has been your experience?

+1 on the BFG AT's!
I've used them on my last three Jeeps.

That is what I use, 31x10.5x15

Great tires in all conditions and have only been stuck once when I was crossing a large ditch that was frozen over, unfortunately my wheels punched in and high centered me.

They are not noisy really, I have had worse in Light Truck Tire.

[warpedskydiver 0]

I have a 1995 5.2L that my brother worked on when I got it, it was pretty quick but with the bigger tires not too much.

I would say however it has some pretty good torque and is no slug by any means.

Not that it will keep up with our A6 Quattro.

[warpedskydiver 0]

I used to love going up the grapevine accelerating really hard, it made people have this weird look on their faces.

That was a 1976 TA with a 455 bored 0.60" over 11:1 compression pistons, huge valves, cam and 2 650cfm spreadbores on a Offenhauser Team G.

That engine was making in the area of 600hp, on premium or aviation gas though.

It had a Lenco 5 spd and a Herb Adams VSE kit.

I miss that car, it was stolen just weeks after it was finished being painted.

Good old Sylmar car thieves...

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I drive an '00 grand cherokee with an aftermarket 270 HP 4.6 stroker and BFG AT tires on

I was considering that 4.6 stroker for my '93, before I traded it in for my current 2006.
The builder claimed it required no change to the induction system,
but I was finding reports to the contrary, so I decided against it.
So what has been your experience?

+1 on the BFG AT's!
I've used them on my last three Jeeps.

That is what I use, 31x10.5x15

Great tires in all conditions and have only been stuck once when I was crossing a large ditch that was frozen over, unfortunately my wheels punched in and high centered me.

They are not noisy really, I have had worse in Light Truck Tire.

Tires are the key!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[warpedskydiver 0]

Gladiator tires!

[Amazon 7]

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I used to love going up the grapevine accelerating really hard, it made people have this weird look on their faces.

That was a 1976 TA with a 455 bored 0.60" over 11:1 compression pistons, huge valves, cam and 2 650cfm spreadbores on a Offenhauser Team G.

That engine was making in the area of 600hp, on premium or aviation gas though.

It had a Lenco 5 spd and a Herb Adams VSE kit.

I miss that car, it was stolen just weeks after it was finished being painted.

Good old Sylmar car thieves...

You get even stranger looks whenyou start passing the little import cars as you are towing a 25' cabin cruiser behind BIG RED going up over Stevens Pass 4,056 ft high.
The boat and trailer only weigh 7500 lbs... which is just a good workout for the Cummins

[warpedskydiver 0]

It is actually good for the motor.

Without being loaded it never truly gets to work like it is supposed to.


My dad was a diesel mechanic, his name was in the credits section of Detroit Diesels Manuals (the larger engines)

He was adamant that people should not use a truck diesel for mere transportation, if not driven hard enough the power might not be there when needed.

[lurch 0]

Well, if you're looking for high altitude power you might need a turbo. I've driven at that altitude a couple times and air that thin would seriously tax even the Golen. On the other hand the Golen has enough excess power it might do ok even at that altitude although it won't be nearly as vicious as it is at sea level. There are long, straight, moderately steep on-ramps around here where the stock jeep would pull ok and deliver slow acceleration to about 80. I tried it on empty highway once with the Golen block and the sucker hit 105 going uphill with no sign of slowing down or even getting close to its limits and would have been doing 115+ by the top of the hill if I hadn't decided "this is just fucking stupid" and backed off to semilegal 70's.
And this is with an as-yet unresolved fuel delivery issue costing it some balls at the top end.

I gotta give it to Chad Golen... guy built one hell of a jeep engine. I'm only a few miles from his place so when it was done I stopped by his shop and took him for a ride, gave him a turn at the wheel himself, and even for a guy used to building 5-700 HP engines, driving a jeep that freakin' fast put a grin on his face. I guess he's built over 100 of em but hadn't had a chance to drive one himself... he just specs em builds em and dyno's em. His tech support and quality are top-notch... you got problems during installation, you call, you get the man himself.

For the money you get:
Speedpro hypereutectic pistons and plasmamoly rings,
Block decked honed and bored, Scat stroker crank, balanced and blueprinted,
Aftermarket high-nickel head casting, bowl porting, 3 angle valvejob, oversize valves, Comp cam, pushrods and lifters. Head milled to accomodate heavier springs and hardened valve locks.
Compression jacked to 9.2, Melling high volume oil pump, Cloyes timing chain, Clevite bearings, and you supply the 24 PPH injectors. It works fine with no changes to stock computer and the sucker fired up in less than 3 cranks the first time I turned the key.
Since then I've had to learn to exercise a LOT of restraint when I step on it. Launching into an immediate 90 degree turn to get out of a gas station it'll light up the inside corner easily...back off and it'll keep right on spinning it till you back off to almost no gas at all. I've put on one or two accidental smokeshows in traffic and drove away feeling sheepish, yet the power delivery is so linear and nonabrupt its difficult to get it to light a tire in a straight line.

The one thing you got to watch for is, the tranny computer takes awhile to adapt. If you make a major mistake in timing exactly when you romp on it during the first few dozen miles, the damn transmission will learn it, decide thats the shift pattern you wanted and repeat it for you. I made the mistake of stomping on it hard enough at 75 to trigger a double downshift it had learned from my previous erratic driving. The stock engine just couldn't wind up fast enough for anything bad to happen and it never had the balls to make me yank my foot off the gas in a panic. The Golen responded to a double downshift by instantly slamming the tach to redline and lunging violently with a louder roar than I've ever heard out of a jeep. This caused me to yank said foot off the gas via startle reaction and faceplant the wheel, in turn teaching me that high compression vehicles have far more effective engine braking.
Doesn't seem to have bothered the engine.
I got to drive it in light snow for the first time today. Drive it like grandma and it'll get 20.9 to the gallon. Not too shabby.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.