JohnRich 4 #51 July 25, 2010 QuoteQuoteSo you advocate that no dual-engine aircraft air show maneuver ever be done unless the maneuver can be accomplished with just a single engine? Nope. Never said that. I am, however, a strong advocate of not flying a multi-engine aircraft below Vmc in close proximity to the ground. See the difference? Do you even understand the difference? You defined Vmc as being the speed at which a twin-engine aircraft could be controlled on one engine. Given your definition, my question to you was perfectly valid, and reflected what you wrote. You, message #32: "To me it looks as if he was below Vmc (the speed at which you should be able to still control the aircraft with one engine operating).See the difference? Do you even understand the difference? (While you're throwing insults around, I might as well throw it back at ya'.) Now you need to explain yourself by answering my question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #52 July 25, 2010 QuoteYou defined Vmc as being the speed at which an aircraft could be controlled on one engine. I only call it that because that's what it is.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #53 July 25, 2010 QuoteQuoteYou really need to give it a break. How do you know he was below Vmc? How else did he lose control of the aircraft? An engine out isn't supposed to equal a crash. You can't make absolute statements like that. In certain operating configurations, yes, an aircraft can continue to be flown with one engine. In other configurations, an engine-out can cause loss of control. How many skydiving aircraft have been lost after an engine-out? Quite a few. Were they all be operated outside their Vmc limits. No. Here's how the FAR's define Vmc: http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-149.html Notice how that number is determined based upon certain "normal" flight configurations. Fly outside those conditions, and Vmc on one engine won't save you. That doesn't mean that any pilot who exceeds those limits is an unsafe rogue. You really ought to give up this line of argument you're making, or we might as well shut down airshows and acrobatics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #54 July 26, 2010 QuoteFly outside those conditions, and Vmc on one engine won't save you. That doesn't mean that any pilot who exceeds those limits is an unsafe rogue. Uh, actually, it kind of does. That's why the manufacturer's go to all the trouble to test them and determine what is and isn't safe. Then, they take a crayon or something and put little marks on the airspeed indicators to remind the pilots what is what. Then, instructors (this is probably where I get this entire notion from; having been one) usually make a pretty big deal about flying according to the numbers. Tell ya what JR. I won't question your authority about what markings on guns mean if you'll accept the fact I might know how to read a flippin' airspeed indicator.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dks13827 3 #55 July 26, 2010 I heard that possibly he didnt have correct flaps set... and that he was dragged badly and knocked out during that. Bummer !! but he is still here, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #56 July 26, 2010 Quote/sigh Really? You're telling me that somebody at the airshow held a gun to the guy's head and said, "Look, we know this goes against all principles of aviation, but we want you to exceed the design limits of your airplane for this. It's imperative. Fuck it if the exact same demonstration could be made a bit faster. We want you to go below the airspeed you'll be able to recover from if anything goes wrong. No! We don't just want you to; WE REQUIRE IT!" Well, there is a precedent for a pilot pushing the envelope and his superiors giving implied approval by doing nothing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Fairchild_Air_Force_Base_B-52_crash"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #57 July 26, 2010 C'mon girls,,,,quit yer bitchin...pull yer skirts down, yer pussies are showin ! smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #58 July 26, 2010 You are correct about Vmc, and that flying below that at low altitudes is not a good idea. However, in this case, everyone has made the assumption that this is an engine-out scenario, when it could have been any one of literally 100's of components malfunctioning leading to the crash. Even if you were above Vmc, any number of control system malfunctions could casue an unrecoverable condition at low altitude. This is the risk of the arishow performance, and this is why low altitude aerobatics or demonstrations are not flown by just any pilot. Given the level of performance required to fly an F-18 in normal operations, and the fact that those pilots would then be further distilled down to those capable of flynig the F-18 in airshows, I would assume the pilot was acting correctly, within the regs for the aircraft and the airshow until an investigation reveals otherwise. You're right about Vmc, but wrong to think that an airshow qualified F-18 pilot made such a basic blunder as dropping below Vmc on a high alpha pass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #59 July 26, 2010 Quote C'mon girls,,,,quit yer bitchin...pull yer skirts down, yer pussies are showin ! Hey I think anyone who has not jumped a C-9 is a pussy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy 0 #60 July 26, 2010 That clearly explains it. Must have been a flux capacitor from wallmart. never go cheap on those! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #61 July 26, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Pretty canopy! It looks a lot like the one on my first jump. It was pretty too. Yeah! That's the way I meant it! Actually I meant my first jump was an Air Force surplus 28' cheapo, with that awesome white, olive drab and orange color scheme. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #62 July 26, 2010 Quote Lose an engine in this situation......get out! Same with the F-16. Uh, , , , the F-16 only has one engine to start with. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.steehouwer.com/f16/f16_4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.steehouwer.com/f16/f16pics.html&usg=__idrOjCZpdU5P1bExlaRF7kJhxAY=&h=278&w=350&sz=24&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=QT-s3ZROdVwN8M:&tbnh=112&tbnw=163&prev=/images%3Fq%3Df-16%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1600%26bih%3D775%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=824&vpy=224&dur=2601&hovh=200&hovw=252&tx=146&ty=109&ei=AiFNTJLXMYXWtQOpmqy-Cw&page=1&ndsp=40&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:0 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #63 July 26, 2010 Quote You're right about Vmc, but wrong to think that an airshow qualified F-18 pilot made such a basic blunder as dropping below Vmc on a high alpha pass. That Thunderbird solo pilot that had to punch out in Idaho at the bottom of his loop? He had not added field elevation in correctly for his safe altitude to perform his loop. Basic arithmetic error. Sh!+ happens.http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/low_level_f16_ejection.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.strategypage.com/military_videos/low_level_F16_ejection.aspx&usg=__kpqCVgLATYo8v_1ogryJRenj39o=&h=444&w=580&sz=27&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=3CG07i9kUagXAM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=207&prev=/images%3Fq%3Df-16%2Bejection%2Bidaho%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1600%26bih%3D775%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=369&vpy=84&dur=1620&hovh=196&hovw=257&tx=115&ty=123&ei=ACJNTJ__MIGisQOvgOVI&page=1&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #64 July 26, 2010 QuoteThat Thunderbird solo pilot that had to punch out in Idaho at the bottom of his loop? He had not added field elevation in correctly for his safe altitude to perform his loop. Basic arithmetic error. That is 100% correct. Everyone makes mistakes, and in that case it was pilot error, and a simple mistake at that. However, the line before the one you quoted read - Quote I would assume the pilot was acting correctly, within the regs for the aircraft and the airshow until an investigation reveals otherwise. - due to the fact that I would give an accomplished military aviator the benefit of the doubt based on his merits, of course until an investigation reveals otherwise. It's those last few words that really make the difference. If this were a low time private pilot involved in contunued VFR flight in to IFR conditions who spun a 172 into the ground, I would be more willing to jump to the conclusion of pilot error. Being an accomplished military aviator, flying a sophisticated twin-engine fighter through an airshow routine, I think it's reasonable to hold back any knee-jerk reaction to place cause and blame so quickly. Maybe that's just me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #65 July 26, 2010 Okay, yeah, I'll buy that. Wait for the investigation. Hey, that C-172 scenario? I got a trip to Washington, DC for talking one of those guys down one time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #66 July 26, 2010 BP fuel? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #67 July 26, 2010 Quote Quote Lose an engine in this situation......get out! Same with the F-16. Uh, , , , the F-16 only has one engine to start with. ......... Exactly!! (Who's on first!?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #68 July 26, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Pretty canopy! It looks a lot like the one on my first jump. It was pretty too. Yeah! That's the way I meant it! Actually I meant my first jump was an Air Force surplus 28' cheapo, with that awesome white, olive drab and orange color scheme. Well, then that's not how I meant it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #69 July 26, 2010 Quote BP fuel? Still had a little saltwater in the mix? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #70 July 26, 2010 Quote Quote BP fuel? Still had a little saltwater in the mix? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
