Russian UT-15

[nicknitro71 0]

Quick question:

Is a Russian UT-15 complete system legal to be jumped in the US? I cannot find any TSO data on it.

Thanks a lot!

Memento Audere Semper

903

[phoenixlpr 0]

It can be legal for a foreigner :).

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

§ 105.49 Foreign parachutists and equipment.
(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft with an unapproved foreign parachute system unless—
(1) The parachute system is worn by a foreign parachutist who is the owner of that system.
(2) The parachute system is of a single-harness dual parachute type.
(3) The parachute system meets the civil aviation authority requirements of the foreign parachutist's country.
(4) All foreign non-approved parachutes deployed by a foreign parachutist during a parachute operation conducted under this section shall be packed as follows—
(i) The main parachute must be packed by the foreign parachutist making the next parachute jump with that parachute, a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person acceptable to the Administrator.
(ii) The reserve parachute must be packed in accordance with the foreign parachutist's civil aviation authority requirements, by a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person acceptable to the Administrator.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[SkydiveTemple 2]

Main parachutes do not require a TSO, only reserves..

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by SkydiveTemple

[fcajump 164]

7 hours ago, SkydiveTemple said:

Main parachutes do not require a TSO, only reserves..

 

As the OP indicated they were talking of a "UT-15 complete system", I would amend that to read, "only reserves, harness, and containers" require a TSO.

IIRC - if it is a complete system, legal in its home country, and jumped here by someone _from_ that country, then it is legal.  But to be jumped here by anyone else, it must be US-TSO'ed.

JW

PS - here's where Counselman steps up and corrects me... for which my failing mind is, in fact, grateful.

 

[rdufokker 6]

I remember Terry Bennett jumping one of these at Liberty, NC (Mike Bland DZ). She later became a Golden Knight and National Champion, but I watched her break an ankle under a UT-15.  Dang thing breathed like it was running a sprint.

[councilman24 37]

On 11/9/2021 at 8:25 PM, fcajump said:

As the OP indicated they were talking of a "UT-15 complete system", I would amend that to read, "only reserves, harness, and containers" require a TSO.

IIRC - if it is a complete system, legal in its home country, and jumped here by someone _from_ that country, then it is legal.  But to be jumped here by anyone else, it must be US-TSO'ed.

JW

PS - here's where Counselman steps up and corrects me... for which my failing mind is, in fact, grateful.

 

Okay, If a non us citizen has a rig that is legal in their home country they can jump it here.  Lot's of more detail.  For instance a Russian had a French reserve not TSO'd in US.  It was legal in Russia so legal for him to jump here.  The nationality of the non US jumper does not have to match the country of origin of the gear.  We all read it like that for years but that's not what it says.

[councilman24 37]

On 4/20/2005 at 7:21 AM, nicknitro71 said:

Quick question:

Is a Russian UT-15 complete system legal to be jumped in the US? I cannot find any TSO data on it.

Thanks a lot!

Memento Audere Semper

903

For a complete system that includes harness and reserve as well as main, it is not legal for a US citizen to jump.  The main in other TSO'd gear is. IF the UT 15 complete rig is legal in the home country of a non US citizen jumper then they can jump it here. i.e. a Russian citizen or if legal in Ukraine a Ukrainian.

 

[pchapman 279]

This is nitpicking, but is the "foreign jumper" defined more closely somewhere?  I assume it would be about RESIDENCY not CITIZENSHIP.

Residency would make more sense? (Not that making sense is a criteria for the FAA...)

So then a US citizen living and working in Europe could bring their non TSO'd gear to a US boogie without being told they can't jump it.

Similarly, I'd expect one can't have an H-1B visa or Green card holder living and working in the US for decades, be able to jump any gear they want, because there's no US TSO requirement in the country of their citizenship.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

1 hour ago, pchapman said:

This is nitpicking, but is the "foreign jumper" defined more closely somewhere?  I assume it would be about RESIDENCY not CITIZENSHIP.

Residency would make more sense? (Not that making sense is a criteria for the FAA...)

So then a US citizen living and working in Europe could bring their non TSO'd gear to a US boogie without being told they can't jump it.

Similarly, I'd expect one can't have an H-1B visa or Green card holder living and working in the US for decades, be able to jump any gear they want, because there's no US TSO requirement in the country of their citizenship.

That is my understanding, but I don't have any solid proof.

As usual, I can be wrong and welcome correction if so.

[sfzombie13 324]

i highly doubt it.  citizenship is key here, at least in any case i have ever heard about.  we had a foreign jumper at our dz for a while, hopefully he comes back soon.  he was a student but lived here.  the faa is pretty clear in definitions, so i'd be surprised if you couldn't look it up in the regs and find out.  if you do, please post it here so we can all see.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Ok. FAR 105.3 (Definitions):

Foreign parachutist means a parachutist who is neither a U.S. citizen or a resident alien and is participating in parachute operations within the United States using parachute equipment not manufactured in the United States.

Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/105.3

Not sure how an ex-pat US Citizen would fit in there.

[sfzombie13 324]

so someone living in the us and not a citizen is a resident alien, so would not be allowed to jump the foreign equipment.  or did i mess that up? 

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

6 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

so someone living in the us and not a citizen is a resident alien, so would not be allowed to jump the foreign equipment.  or did i mess that up? 

Right. As Peter asked, someone living in the US on a Green Card (resident alien) or H1B Visa (long term work permit) would NOT be considered a "Foreign Jumper" and would need to jump gear approved in the US (and packed according to US rules).

I'm not sure about a US citizen who has lived (let's say) in the Middle East for a long time, has gear that's legal to jump there but isn't legal in the US (or the reserve hasn't been packed by an FAA rigger). 

Rather 'nit-picky', but I'm a 'detail weenie' and I enjoy this sort of thing.

[sfzombie13 324]

if he's a us citizen, no matter how long he's been gone, he's still a citizen.  nit picky, or whatever, not much room for error.

 

[sfzombie13 324]

i'm currently reading the oxygen jump procedures in the sim.  i got side tracked looking for the answer to this.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Just now, sfzombie13 said:

i'm currently reading the oxygen jump procedures in the sim.  i got side tracked looking for the answer to this.

Yup. 

I totally get that.

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

7 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

i highly doubt it.  citizenship is key here, at least in any case i have ever heard about.  we had a foreign jumper at our dz for a while, hopefully he comes back soon.  he was a student but lived here.  the faa is pretty clear in definitions, so i'd be surprised if you couldn't look it up in the regs and find out.  if you do, please post it here so we can all see.

Hi 13,

Re:  the faa is pretty clear in definitions

OK, that got the hairs on the back of my neck excited.

Having deal somewhat extensively with the FAA since 1965, as both a rigger with numerous field approvals and as a mfr with multiple TSO's, in my personal experience, the one thing the FAA is really good at is NOT being clear on definitions.

IMO they do their very best to not put anything in writing.  Once it is in writing it is open to challenge & comment.  IMO the FAA does not want that.

Now, down off of my soapbox.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  The last discussions that I had with the FAA, I asked them to put what they were demanding in writing & I would respond.  They said that they would.  Later that day, I had a voice message from them that they would not be putting anything in writing but I had to do what they said.  I never did.

Outside of the ATC guys, I have no respect for the employees of the FAA; with two exceptions in 55 yrs.

[sfzombie13 324]

14 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Having deal somewhat extensively with the FAA since 1965, as both a rigger with numerous field approvals and as a mfr with multiple TSO's, in my personal experience, the one thing the FAA is really good at is NOT being clear on definitions.

 

that's the thing about personal experience.  mine has been the opposite of yours, but having almost no interaction with them outside my son's flight physical, i expect that.  i don't spend time reading their manuals, and except for a few things i was curious about on the ppl testing, the only things i have read of theirs is in the sim.  all of that was pretty straight forward, and i did find the definition i was referring to a short time after asking for it.  thanx for the insight though, it's always good to have others' views about things.  my perspective gets a little narrow sometimes.

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

5 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

that's the thing about personal experience.  mine has been the opposite of yours, but having almost no interaction with them outside my son's flight physical, i expect that.  i don't spend time reading their manuals, and except for a few things i was curious about on the ppl testing, the only things i have read of theirs is in the sim.  all of that was pretty straight forward, and i did find the definition i was referring to a short time after asking for it.  thanx for the insight though, it's always good to have others' views about things.  my perspective gets a little narrow sometimes.

Hi 13,

Re:  my perspective gets a little narrow sometimes.

That's human nature; we all suffer from it.

Jerry Baumchen