To soon for a coach rating?

[skybytch 273]

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Guys with 100 jumps usually barely have the skills for a 4 way rw jump.

I call bullshit. Maybe "back in the day", but not now. At least not where I jump.

I know a guy, been jumping for almost a year now, who did 10 points on a four way on jump #70 (M-J-E-O, if you're curious) - two advanced 4 way competitors, another low experience jumper and him. Most of the 4 ways he does now (at about 150 jumps) are with people with less jumps and they still manage 5-6 points. And he doesn't have a crapload of tunnel time, either.

Nor is he the only newer jumper on the dz with equivalent skills. But we're also lucky enough to have a few LO's who love to bring new jumpers into the RW fold.

Sure, "back in the day" it took sending three good people up with the noob (with the noob staying in place and the other three flying around him/her) to get them their Falcon award (that was 4 points on a 4 way for the young pups). But it ain't the 90's anymore... it's very possible to become a safe recreational RW jumper in less than 100 jumps. Just depends on how much money and effort the new jumper is willing to put into it and how coachable they are.

[ChrisRomp 0]

Holding my nose and diving in. Yummy bait.

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Guys with 100 jumps usually barely have the skills for a 4 way rw jump.

That depends on the person, and the culture at the DZ. I've been to dropzones with no RW jumpers, and I know a kid who started to sit-fly on jump #26. He's got ~150 jumps now and has probably only been on his belly for less than 30. Should he be a coach? Probably not.

This January I did my first AFF jump. I just got my coach rating last month. Between then and now I've been doing 95% RW jumps, and a lot of 4-way. I'm the guy Lisa mentioned as doing 10-points in a 4-way scramble on jump #70.

It was not very long ago that I was a student. I remember making the exact same mistakes they do, and what worked to fix it is very fresh in my mind. I got a lot of advice from 10k+ jumpers that was very difficult to translate into something I could use as a 10-jump student. More jumps does not make someone a better teacher.

I love to teach (was going to be a teacher at one point) and I see too many students having to do solo after boring solo. I'm happy to jump with them, and that's why I got my coach rating.

Also, the coach rating course focused a lot on adult teaching methods (which I was very pleasantly surprised to see). I see a lot of advice (good and otherwise) being freely given by jumpers of all experience levels to jumpers of all experience levels, but this is not the same thing as teaching.

So, do I have a lot to offer a new AFF-graduate in terms of teaching good and safe skydiving, even though I'm still sub-200 jumps? Absolutely. Will a non-current 5000+ jumper find much value in "coaching" from me? Not likely.

[ILUVCHUTERS 1]

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So, do I have a lot to offer a new AFF-graduate in terms of teaching good and safe skydiving, even though I'm still sub-200 jumps? Absolutely. Will a non-current 5000+ jumper find much value in "coaching" from me? Not likely.

Exactly. I refrained from commenting on that post, but seriously....

That person is not the person that I, with a new coach rating, will be coaching. It'll be the 20-jump person who needs to do a barrel roll, front loop, and back loop on the same jump for their A license, and needs someone to watch them (and who is allowed to jump with them) and sign off on that. Or the one who needs me to teach them how to do front riser turns (above 2000 feet, of course).

And according to CSPA, I'm qualified/capable of doing so, safely.

[labrys 0]

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Holding a USPA coach rating means that somebody with another USPA rating thinks that you can safely jump with post Cat E, pre-A licensed jumpers and adequately teach a few basic skills to them. That's it.

Your current skill level is likely far above that of somebody with 10 jumps. Pretty much anybody with decent verbal communication skills can teach basic skills. It ain't rocket science.

While I agree with what you've written, I've always wondered at the USPA logic that determines it's unsafe for a jumper with fewer than 200 jumps to jump with a camera (I agree with this), but perfectly ok for someone with 100 jumps to take on the responsibilty to jump with a novice / student.

Owned by Remi #?

[DSE 5]

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Holding a USPA coach rating means that somebody with another USPA rating thinks that you can safely jump with post Cat E, pre-A licensed jumpers and adequately teach a few basic skills to them. That's it.

Your current skill level is likely far above that of somebody with 10 jumps. Pretty much anybody with decent verbal communication skills can teach basic skills. It ain't rocket science.

While I agree with what you've written, I've always wondered at the USPA logic that determines it's unsafe for a jumper with fewer than 200 jumps to jump with a camera (I agree with this), but perfectly ok for someone with 100 jumps to take on the responsibilty to jump with a novice / student.

Why do you feel they're related? They're very different kinds of jumps requiring entirely different skill sets.

[labrys 0]

They do require different skill sets... just as flying a wingsuit probably involves a different skillset than becoming a good videographer, but one of the primary reasons I've heard for requiring 200 jumps before donning a camera or wingsuit or trying a HALO jump is that they are a distraction that someone fewer than 200 jumps is usually not prepared to deal with, particularly when problems arise.

How is "donning" a student less of a distraction? A great many people I've asked have admitted that somewhere around 200 jumps they started thinking and reacting a lot more externally, gaining a dramatic increase in situational awareness. I found that to be true for myself as well.

I do think that someone with 10 jumps can benefit from basic coaching from someone with 100 jumps. I also wonder what additional risk the 100 jump coach is assuming for both themselves and the student though, and whether or not it's worth applying the same 200 jump standard that we've established for adding additional risk / responsibility to camera and wingsuit jumps to coaching.

In the low jump number VS GoPro threads many, many experienced instructors and jumpers say something to the effect that it's only a hundred jumps... suck it up and wait until you try a camera or a winsuit or a base jump. Why isn't that the predominant argument against coaching at 100 jumps?

Edit to add: If someone with 100 jumps can forget their own legstraps when they put on a wingsuit, what are the chances that someone who's got 100 jumps fails to give a student a proper gear check and misses a problem?

Another edit: I stepped away to do something else and a conversation at my DZ regarding teaching students to track popped into my mind. One of the most important things a coach is doing with a student in the 10-25 jump range is teaching, building, and evaluating tracking skills. Someone with a 100 jumps should have the technical ability to do that but...

Compare the USPA's guidelines for being ready to use a camera or a wingsuit with the expectation that at that level of student progression, the 100 jump coach is expected simultaneously keep track of their own altitude, the students altitude, evaluate the track (without the benefit of a camera for de-briefing, because they aren't yet qualified to wear one), and also react and get the f$%k out of the way when the student does a beagle track. It doesn't seem logical to me....

Owned by Remi #?

[ridestrong 1]

I tried making that exact same argument once... in that having a student as a coach, is as much, or more of a 'distraction' to your own situational awareness than having a camera on your helmet.

The only thing I would say differently in your statement is that someone should be able to perform a basic gear check at 1 jump just as thoroughly as someone at 1000 jumps... and where the coach should do a gear check, it is not their responsibility.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[labrys 0]

Yeah... but you were making the same argument in defense of making a camera or wingsuit jump instead of the opposite, right?

Owned by Remi #?

[ridestrong 1]

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Yeah... but you were making the same argument in defense of making a camera or wingsuit jump instead of the opposite, right?

No... I never said anything about a wingsuit.

I was simply trying to state it as I said above: in that having a student as a coach, is as much, or more of a 'distraction' to your own situational awareness than having a camera on your helmet.

I think it would make as much sense to offer a camera course at 100 jumps for people interested in jumping with a camera as it does to allow them to take a coaching course... teach them the 'need to knows' about risks and awareness, as you would in either discipline. I also think it would be reasonable to require 200 for coaching as well.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Wings-n-Things 0]

Where to start...

If USPA wants to give "coach" ratings to guys with 100 jumps, I guess that's fine... I guess. I just don't think they should be charging with so little experience.

"Back in the day" which for me was '87 to '90, anybody could jump with a recent AFF or static line graduate. Hell, they often jumped together! We never charged them to jump with them. To me the whole idea is ludicrous. If you're charging for rw jumps, you better be a member of Airspeed or forget about it! The same goes for most other disciplines... more or less.

This sport is too expensive as it is to be paying for someone else's jumps unless they really are "all that and a bag of chips". I'm sorry but that's just my perspective on this. It's nothing personal.

For the 70 jump wonder turning 10 points... congrats! And no offense but if somebody told me that on the dz, I'd tell 'em to show me the video or stfu. Again, nothing personal. It's just extremely difficult to believe.

Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

[Wings-n-Things 0]

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I also think it would be reasonable to require 200 for coaching as well.

I'd say make it 2000 and drop the requirement for non-license holders to jump with an I or coach.

Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

[labrys 0]

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I'd say make it 2000 and drop the requirement for non-license holders to jump with an I or coach.

USPA did just that recently, except that they made it 500 jumps at an S&TA's discretion. What's the difference between 500 jumps and 2000? compared to 100 jumps and 200?

Owned by Remi #?

[brettski74 0]

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That person is not the person that I, with a new coach rating, will be coaching. It'll be the 20-jump person who needs to do a barrel roll, front loop, and back loop on the same jump for their A license, and needs someone to watch them (and who is allowed to jump with them) and sign off on that. Or the one who needs me to teach them how to do front riser turns (above 2000 feet, of course).

And according to CSPA, I'm qualified/capable of doing so, safely.

Yes, but you're not qualified to teach someone proximity, levels, taking grips, etc. You'll need your coach 2 rating for that. Be aware that coach ratings in Canada are different and a lot harder to get than the USPA coach rating - especially if you consider what's required to get your Coach 2 rating that you need for teaching RW skills. Someone from south of the border may correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, with a B licence and 100 jumps, you go and do a weekend course and voila, you're a coach with essentially the same privileges as a coach 2 under CSPA.. There's also no contact requirements like CSPA as far as I'm aware.

[Ron 10]

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10k jumps or coach jumps? I think someone with 100 jumps WOULD be as good of a coach - they were JUST there and they remember the fears. 10k jumps are sometimes too removed.

Well, we will just have to disagree. As a jumper that had a SLJM at 100 jumps and as a jumper that now has ~5000 jumps.... I can tell you that I do a much better job now than when I had 100 jumps.

I suspect that you will feel the same way in another 800-1000 jumps.

That does not mean I think less of the 100 jump coach. I just think experience is a valuable teaching tool. And they have not been exposed to that much, and therefore can't teach what they don't know.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[matthewcline 0]

I believe it is "D" License (which we know is 500 or more jumps now) and no more than a one to one ratio (one "D" to one Student). But your point is valid.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[DSE 5]

first, I agree in that someone with more jumps is likely to be a better base than someone with 100 jumps. That said, I've also seen people with 3000 jumps unable to fly relative on their bellies due to a historical focus on freeflying.

I consider camera flying to be different because not only do you have a focus on another person(s) but also on a device, an angle of attack, technology, and in many cases pull altitudes are different in either direction. Loss of altitude awareness carries a greater potential, IMO. That's not to say Coaches don't screw up too.
I have a photo of a coach jump where a new coach was wearing a camera and lost altitude awareness. Both student and coach ended up with 2 out.
I also have a photo during the SOS jumps last year where 4 people had two outs, all highly experienced skydivers on the same load. It happens on both ends.

[skybytch 273]

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If USPA wants to give "coach" ratings to guys with 100 jumps, I guess that's fine... I guess.

I got a static line JM rating at 100 jumps in 1990. 100 jump wonders have been working with students for longer than you or I have been jumping. The only difference is that today many of those 100 jumps wonders fly a hell of a lot better than we did when we had 100 jumps.

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For the 70 jump wonder turning 10 points... congrats! And no offense but if somebody told me that on the dz, I'd tell 'em to show me the video or stfu. Again, nothing personal. It's just extremely difficult to believe.

Believe The jump in question is #6.

[jaffo 0]

Believe The jump in question is #6.

[Wings-n-Things 0]

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If USPA wants to give "coach" ratings to guys with 100 jumps, I guess that's fine... I guess.

I got a static line JM rating at 100 jumps in 1990. 100 jump wonders have been working with students for longer than you or I have been jumping. The only difference is that today many of those 100 jumps wonders fly a hell of a lot better than we did when we had 100 jumps.

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For the 70 jump wonder turning 10 points... congrats! And no offense but if somebody told me that on the dz, I'd tell 'em to show me the video or stfu. Again, nothing personal. It's just extremely difficult to believe.

Believe The jump in question is #6.

That's pretty impressive. I jumped with guys in the late 80's with 500 jumps who didn't fly that well.

Card carrying member of the
Nanny State Liberation Front

[skybytch 273]

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Where was the course?

Davis. The guys on Kaleidoscope (former local 4 way team) organize lots of RW stuff, including camps like that one. Besides the "paid for" camps, they also do a lot of free coaching.

[ChrisRomp 0]

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Where was the course?

OT: If anyone's interested in NorCal there's another one of these "camps" coming up but the deadline is fast approaching. If they had me doing 6-10 points at 70 jumps, imagine if you had a bit more experience? It's really good stuff.

Facebook event page: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=363622960829&index=1

[Ron 10]

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For the 70 jump wonder turning 10 points... congrats! And no offense but if somebody told me that on the dz, I'd tell 'em to show me the video or stfu. Again, nothing personal. It's just extremely difficult to believe.

For a guys 100th jump 3 of us went up and took him on a 4way. He turned 17 or 18 points on that jump. Yes, the other three were two serious competitors and the other was a very exp AFFI... But it was a random jump and he did all his own flying. This was before the tunnel.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[brettski74 0]

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first, I agree in that someone with more jumps is likely to be a better base than someone with 100 jumps. That said, I've also seen people with 3000 jumps unable to fly relative on their bellies due to a historical focus on freeflying.

Not to mention great belly fliers who suck as a coach. Being a great coach requires knowing not just how to fly well, but also how to identify areas for improvement in other's flying and the ability to communicate to them how to improve in a way that they can assimilate and use. Part of that is attitude, personality, etc, but much of that is learned. I do find that most of the great coaches I've worked with in the past already do a lot of coaching, so it doesn't hurt for someone to start getting coaching experience early on, even if they only have a small pool of knowledge to share. As long as they're aware of their limits, the experience should be very useful to both them and their future novices.

[kallend 2,099]

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first, I agree in that someone with more jumps is likely to be a better base than someone with 100 jumps. That said, I've also seen people with 3000 jumps unable to fly relative on their bellies due to a historical focus on freeflying.

Not to mention great belly fliers who suck as a coach. Being a great coach requires knowing not just how to fly well, but also how to identify areas for improvement in other's flying and the ability to communicate to them how to improve in a way that they can assimilate and use.

It takes years of training to become a 1st grade teacher or a 6th grade teacher or a high school teacher. It's absurd to think a 3 day coach course imparts much in the way of pedagogical skills. Even to suggest that it could is absurd.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ChrisRomp 0]

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It takes years of training to become a 1st grade teacher or a 6th grade teacher or a high school teacher. It's absurd to think a 3 day coach course imparts much in the way of pedagogical skills. Even to suggest that it could is absurd.

Gotta start somewhere.