dragon2 2 #26 May 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteif your speed is slow enough Speed is a vector. It has no meaning without the direction or are you talking about horizontal and vertical components of your speed? When talking about wingsuit speeds, most people mean the downward speed since that is what most people can measure (pro-track, neptune). You can of course take a gps with you, but I meant the downward speed, which is also what does or does not trigger AAD's and audibles. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #27 May 3, 2005 Thanks Kim, for clearing that up. I stand corrected,Vigil is not (yet) wingsuit compatible (assuming efficient WS flight at low altitude). Sorry for the misunderstanding. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #28 May 3, 2005 QuoteSpeed is a vector. It has no meaning without the direction or are you talking about horizontal and vertical components of your speed? Velocity is a vector. Speed is the magnitude of the velocity, a scalar. I believe (but I've been wrong before )the Vigil measures (indirectly) rate of change in altitude, which would be the vertical component of the velocity. chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimgriffin 0 #29 May 3, 2005 Hi Eric. Actually, the Vigil engineers designed the Vigil specifically so it wouldn't have to be returned for updates or maintenance. There are no moving parts inside to maintain (like the airbag computer in a BMW). All its hardware (battery, cutter, display) can be replaced by a rigger. The only part that can no be changed out by a rigger is the electronics/brain. Hopefully no Vigil will have to come back within 20 years. IF at sometime in its life, the Vigil's self diagnostic does not meet every parameter perfectly, an error code will be displayed and the unit will not switch on. That is when the unit would have to go back to the factory. But, I would guess that the Vigil would just be replaced to keep the jumper's rig form being down for too long. The engineering company behind the Vigil has automatic devices (in the non skydiving world) that have been in service for at least 20 years now. The guy who owns Advanced Aerospace Designs (mfg of the Vigil in Brussels, Belgium) has owned/run and engineering company for over 20 years. He has worked on AAD technology since 1996. In 1996 his company was subcontracted to produce the controller unit for the EPOS AAD but it never came to the skydiving market because the project was bought out by Airtec. Oh yeah, someone said a few posts back that the battery should be changed when it fails. Actually, it should be changed when a jumper gets the BATLOW signal on his display. Once BATLOW appears you can still do a weekend’s worth of jumping (about 14 jumps) but the battery should be replaced after that. The BATLOW signal will come on in anywhere from 700-1000 jumps. ~Kim Griffin Vigil USA, DeLand-Kimberly Griffin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #30 May 3, 2005 A rigger can replace everything that part I understand. What I saw as an advantage of the Vigil was to have the field riggers update the Firmware. But the cost of the software and hardware to do that sounds like its out of the price range for all but the busiest lofts. If Vigil says I need to update my software and the closest place to do is a a loft in Cali or a loft in FL... I really don't have much of a choice but to pull the unit, ship it out for the update and then wait for it to come back from the "servicing" right? At $700 at rigger would need to have 70 customers to only charge $10 just to cover their cost. at that price I can't think of any riggers at the smaller DZ's around here that would buy it just to service the 1 or 2 vigils that might come to them for service at some point.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #31 May 3, 2005 QuoteA rigger can replace everything that part I understand. What I saw as an advantage of the Vigil was to have the field riggers update the Firmware. But the cost of the software and hardware to do that sounds like its out of the price range for all but the busiest lofts. If Vigil says I need to update my software and the closest place to do is a a loft in Cali or a loft in FL... I really don't have much of a choice but to pull the unit, ship it out for the update and then wait for it to come back from the "servicing" right? At $700 at rigger would need to have 70 customers to only charge $10 just to cover their cost. at that price I can't think of any riggers at the smaller DZ's around here that would buy it just to service the 1 or 2 vigils that might come to them for service at some point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Similar to the US$3,000 test chamber for old-school FXC 12000 AADs. Mind you, FXCs are supposed to be chamber-tested before every reserve repack. Vigil has a good idea about making testing software available to riggers. I would not trust ANY AAD that had not been tested within the last 5 years. Vigil's next challenge is making the testing software affordable for riggers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimgriffin 0 #32 May 3, 2005 Speed is a vector. It has no meaning without the direction or are you talking about horizontal and vertical components of your speed? Per my first post this morning: Quotethe Vigil will only fire on a wingsuit jump (or any type of jump) if the flyer's vertical speed reaches 78 MPH at 840 ft. Hopefully none of you WS flyers our there are in full flight under 1000ft. Just vertical freefall speed. ~Kim Griffin Vigil USA, DeLand, Fla-Kimberly Griffin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #33 May 4, 2005 QuoteHi guys. Sorry... the Vigil will only fire on a wingsuit jump (or any type of jump) if the flyer's vertical speed reaches 78 MPH at 840 ft. Hopefully none of you WS flyers our there are in full flight under 1000ft. ~Kim Griffin Sales Manager Vigil USA, DeLand BMI Ok thanks for the info. So the conclusion is both Cypress (1&2) and vigil have the same limitations on WS jumps. They will function in case of a problem............... The maintenance issue has been discussed several times here in this forum. I have my opinion about is (as an aerospace engineer) but everyone has the right to have its own opinion (We like in the free part of the world, or not?) Future will tell what is wise. Although I love my cypres I have to admit the cabling of the vigil is way more robust. Have fun, jump safe, do not let you AAD catch you! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EDYDO 0 #34 May 4, 2005 Quote That friend noticed that because she uses the vigil as a kind of log book so she wants the jump numbers to be correct. Seems like a poor plan to me, what about the times you jump a friends rig or demo a rig? With a Pro-Track or Neptune, you can carry them with any rig and your log stays current. You are also using the batteries in the Vigil more. I prefer to keep my AAD batteries as fresh as possible. Ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #35 May 4, 2005 Quote Quote That friend noticed that because she uses the vigil as a kind of log book so she wants the jump numbers to be correct. Seems like a poor plan to me, what about the times you jump a friends rig or demo a rig? With a Pro-Track or Neptune, you can carry them with any rig and your log stays current. You are also using the batteries in the Vigil more. I prefer to keep my AAD batteries as fresh as possible. Ed She never jumps another rig and nobody jumps hers, AFAIK. I'm having a lot of trouble with my neptune logbooks, cause I keep lending them to others ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #36 May 4, 2005 QuoteIf I were to buy an AAD at this moment I would get a Vigil. From what I have read and been told the cost of ownership is less then the Cypres. There is no expiration, no 4 month or 8 month inspection and the life expectancy is 20 years. That to me makes the Vigil worth more. The original CYPRES did not have a life span either...Then it did. Electronics fail after long enough. How many out there have a 12 year old TV? They are gonna cost about the same even in the long haul as Terry explained. QuoteVigil batteries are $125 plus installation (plus shipping? don't know) and are replaced when the old one fails. From memory UP TO 4 years. Cypres II 4 and 8 year service is $160 plus shipping. Includes everything to keep it running for 4 years. Plus inspection. They won't say it's a battery So, while the VIGIL may be slightly less expensive in both original purchuse and MX....It also does not have the 12 year history of CYPRES."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #37 May 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf I were to buy an AAD at this moment I would get a Vigil. From what I have read and been told the cost of ownership is less then the Cypres. There is no expiration, no 4 month or 8 month inspection and the life expectancy is 20 years. That to me makes the Vigil worth more. The original CYPRES did not have a life span either...Then it did. Electronics fail after long enough. How many out there have a 12 year old TV? They are gonna cost about the same even in the long haul as Terry explained. QuoteVigil batteries are $125 plus installation (plus shipping? don't know) and are replaced when the old one fails. From memory UP TO 4 years. Cypres II 4 and 8 year service is $160 plus shipping. Includes everything to keep it running for 4 years. Plus inspection. They won't say it's a battery So, while the VIGIL may be slightly less expensive in both original purchuse and MX....It also does not have the 12 year history of CYPRES. Well I don't currently have an AAD and am not in a hurry to get one. If I did have one I wouldn't rely on it. It would be just one more thing that I would have to take into account on every jump. By the time I do get around to buying one I am sure they will have all the bugs worked out. I probably won't buy one till I am forced to by regulations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #38 May 6, 2005 Quoteprobably won't buy one till I am forced to by regulations. let's hope this never happens. My cypres is do for it's 8 year. When it's done I'll look at the Virgil and see how it's doing. Seem like a better deal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caspar 0 #39 May 8, 2005 soeone said that the cypres cuts the cord(?) once and the vigil cuts it twice. i dont really understand the pro's and cons of that at all..... "When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #40 May 9, 2005 There is at least one DZ I have heard that will not allow someone to jump with a Vigil. I would be cautious about purchasing a Vigil as this could become a trend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,362 #41 May 9, 2005 Not trying to give you a bad time; but is this rumor or fact? If it is really factual, can you name the DZ as this is a first in my knowledge (at least here in the good old USofA). If factual, I would wonder WHY? Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badlock 0 #42 May 9, 2005 Quotesoeone said that the cypres cuts the cord(?) once and the vigil cuts it twice. i dont really understand the pro's and cons of that at all..... Pro's and con's are in the eye of the beholder But to answer your question: That's bullshit. Vigil cuts the loop in the same way as Cypres does. (One of the reasons why a couple of people say that Vigil is only a copy of the Cypres, yada yada). Don't be a Lutz! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #43 May 9, 2005 QuoteNot trying to give you a bad time; but is this rumor or fact? If it is really factual, can you name the DZ as this is a first in my knowledge (at least here in the good old USofA). If factual, I would wonder WHY? Thanks. Fact. PM sent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #44 May 9, 2005 Why do you not post the name of the DZ? Jurgen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #45 May 9, 2005 QuoteWhy do you not post the name of the DZ? Good question. I'm a bit curious myself. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #46 May 9, 2005 Do you mind telling me which DZ? PM me if you prefer. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #47 May 9, 2005 QuoteVigil cuts the loop in the same way as Cypres does. Incorrect. From Advanced Aerospace Designs: Quote The cutter uses a round knife (the loop is cut twice) The Vigil does not require special loops to be used closing the reserves, as the CYPRES does. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #48 May 9, 2005 Can you think of any one out there that is using 550 for reserve loops anymore? The Cypres cutter slices through 3mm steel cable, there is no cord out there it will not slice through. There is great video out there of a Cypres clean cutting a 3mm steel control cable on skydivingmovies.com. Cypres loops are a great way to mantain minimal pin friction. If the loop is cut twice its cut twice with in about 1-2mm of each cut. I think the cutter design was changed slightly to avoid patent and manufactoring issues. If anyone can site a good reason to have it cut the loop 2 times with in 2mm I'd love to hear them.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #49 May 9, 2005 QuoteIf anyone can site a good reason to have it cut the loop 2 times with in 2mm I'd love to hear them. Redundancy is a long standing tradition in aviation. Why do we jump with two canopies? For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #50 May 9, 2005 QuoteReply To If anyone can site a good reason to have it cut the loop 2 times with in 2mm I'd love to hear them. Redundancy is a long standing tradition in aviation. Why do we jump with two canopies? One cutter with 2 blades isn't redundancy, if one blade fails to cut the loop, so does the other. I don't see any advantage. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
