hard housings or not.

[traker 0]

What's up.....


I keep getting hassled by some of my friends to get hard housings installed on my flexon. If was told that if the canopy isn't over loaded, soft housings shouldn't be a problem. Does anyone care to add to these statements?

"we can either clmib down...or take the 15 second express shuttle" ---- during a snow storm on a 1000 foot antenna

[billbooth 10]

Soft housings are always a bad idea. However, the "Partial - soft" housings on the Flexon are the best soft housing out there.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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SERVICE BULLETIN: # SB-1530

DATE: JANUARY 1, 1997
# OF PAGES: 1
SUBJECT: '94 TALON & FLEXON 3-RING HARD HOUSING RETROFIT
STATUS: OPTIONAL

IDENTIFICATION: All '94 Talons container P/N 4111-( ) Flexon- container P/N 4115-( ) manufactured after April 1, 1994.

BACKGROUND: In recent months there have been reports of hard pulls during cutaways. In researching this further we have found that we have not always been able to duplicate the hard pull on the ground. We believe that this is due to the aerodynamics of the malfunction such as severe spinning contributing to the pull force. At the same time we have found that most of the Talons and Flexons do not exhibit the hard pull syndrome. However, as a service to our customers, RI has developed a retrofit of hard housings for those who wish to modify their systems.

SERVICE BULLETIN: For owners of '94 Talons and Flexons who wish to modify their systems to a hard housing configuration, a field modification kit and procedure PMP-1243 is available from the factory for a price of $20.00 post paid. This modification is a"Hybrid" design that utilizes a hard housing around the neck for the long cable while retaining the soft housing ends for comfort. This design is currently being used in all production Talons and Flexons. For individuals who wish a full hard housing installation, a kit and procedure PMP-1243A is available for $30.00 post paid.

COMPLIANCE DATE: NONE. This is an optional modification at the discretion of the owner.

AUTHORITY:

SANDY R. REID, PRESIDENT
Rigging Innovations Inc.
P O Box 1398, Romoland, CA 92585
Telephone: 909-928-1438
FAX: 909-928-1538
E-mail: ri@ix.netcom.com

DISTRIBUTION:

* All registered owners affected by the Service Bulletin.
* All Rigging Innovations Dealers.
* All Parachuting Publications.
* National Aero Clubs, Parachuting Section.
* Military Parachute Organizations.

http://www.rigginginnovations.com/info/Sb_new.html


I remember when soft housings were a big issue, at least in the skydiving press. People used to do what was referred to as a "three blokes test." It consisted of trying to cut away from your main risers, on the ground, suspended, with two of your heaviest friends hanging onto you and your harness. The idea was to simulate a 3g load. If you try it, get the risers twisted up good and tight before trying to cut away. Also make sure you are close enough to the ground when you try to pull your cutaway handle that you won't fall and hurt yourself when it releases.

If it releases, your soft housings should be good to go.

Or you could just have them replaced for the peace of mind. Hard housings are superior.

For Great Deals on Gear

[caspar 0]

sorry if i sound stupid - recently qualified...

what is a flexon adn what are where are the hard or soft housings?? what is the main difference?? i use my club rig which is a javelin odyssey-what does this have??

cheers,

caspar

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[tdog 0]

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what are where are the hard or soft housings?? what is the main difference??

The hard housings are a rigid tube inserted into the risers on your main canopy. The three ring assembly is held "closed" by a cable that is attached to the cutaway pad that goes thru a loop on the 3rings... Well, past the loop on the 3rings, there is slack on that cable... Soft housings are just pockets in the risers that the slack goes into. Hard housings are rigid tubes in that pocket.

The reason for the hard housings... If you main spins up so far as to twist up your risers, the cutaway can become difficult or impossible if the cutaway cable slack is all bound up in the twisted risers. The rigid tubes of the hard housings help protect the slack from getting stuck.... If you have hard housings (tubes) you should inspect them to make sure they are firmly in place, as if not, they could slide down the slack and actually go thru the loop on the 3rings and cause the 3ring to be held shut.

I am not a rigger, but I have studied these a lot when I purchased my rig and just recieved a lot more training on them today in a canopy class... So, I invite more experienced people to make sure I did not screw up this answer.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I am not a rigger, but I have studied these a lot when I purchased my rig and just recieved a lot more training on them today in a canopy class... So, I invite more experienced people to make sure I did not screw up this answer.

What you describe is hard housings in the risers, designed to keep the cutaway cable from binding up if the risers are all twisted up. But those are not quite the housings we are talking about in this case.

The cutaway cable has to be routed from the handle to the risers. This is can be done with channels sewn into fabric, called soft housings, or hard cable housings, referred to as hard housings. Similar to the risers tdog described, only in your container.

For Great Deals on Gear

[tdog 0]

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What you describe is hard housings in the risers, designed to keep the cutaway cable from binding up if the risers are all twisted up. But those are not quite the housings we are talking about in this case.

Thanks for educating me too and clearing that up a bit... I just looked at more than one manufacture's website to see what they call the “hard housings“ in the risers, and it seems 2 out of 2 manufactures call the inserts in the risers "hard housings"... So, this term I guess applies to more than one component on the rig, huh… I guess I never have seen a rig where the tubes from the cutaway handle to the 3rings were not “hard“. Learn something new every day… Thanks…

[Kris 0]

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Thanks for educating me too and clearing that up a bit... I just looked at more than one manufacture's website to see what they call the “hard housings“ in the risers, and it seems 2 out of 2 manufactures call the inserts in the risers "hard housings"... So, this term I guess applies to more than one component on the rig, huh… I guess I never have seen a rig where the tubes from the cutaway handle to the 3rings were not “hard“. Learn something new every day… Thanks…

They're not common now, but they were several years ago. My late 90's Talon had them, but I had them converted to hard-housings on both the rig, and the risers.

In fact, off the top of my head, I can't think of a single US manufacturer that still uses them. Are there any? I'd be surprised if there were.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

What's up.....


I keep getting hassled by some of my friends to get hard housings installed on my flexon. If was told that if the canopy isn't over loaded, soft housings shouldn't be a problem. Does anyone care to add to these statements?

Soft housings never had a reason to be in existence. They did not fix a problem but they caused a few. A good example of trying to fix something that is working fine.

The 3 ring cutaway system, risers, harness ring, housings, cables and handle, have been around for over 20 some years. I have yet to see anyone develop an improvement to any of those components with the exception of some redesign of the handle. Any change that has been attempted has led to problems where there were none before.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[AndyMan 7]

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The 3 ring cutaway system, risers, harness ring, housings, cables and handle, have been around for over 20 some years. I have yet to see anyone develop an improvement to any of those components with the exception of some redesign of the handle. Any change that has been attempted has led to problems where there were none before.

Off topic, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on the Aerodyne 3-ring?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[mjosparky 4]

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The 3 ring cutaway system, risers, harness ring, housings, cables and handle, have been around for over 20 some years. I have yet to see anyone develop an improvement to any of those components with the exception of some redesign of the handle. Any change that has been attempted has led to problems where there were none before.

Off topic, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on the Aerodyne 3-ring?

_Am

First of all, what problem do they fix?

Try and come up with the manufacturing spec. to use as a guide when doing an inspection.

I recently saw 2 sets, 4 risers, lined up and they all had different measurements. How do you tell which one is correct? Or if they are all correct, what are the allowable tolerances?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billbooth 10]

I just went back and did a side by side pull test with our standard mini riser and the Miniforce riser. The set-up was a single riser, with the yellow cable through a short stainless housing. Here are the results (average, 3 tests each weight):


250 lbs. load - Standard = 2.0 lbs / Miniforce = 1.0 lbs.
500 lbs. load - Standard = 3.0 lbs. / Miniforce = 2.0 lbs.
750 lbs. load - Standard = 5.0 lbs. / Miniforce = 3.5 lbs.
1,000 lbs. load - Standard = 8.0 lbs. / Miniforce = 6.0 lbs.

So, if a 200 lbs. jumper was spinning at 5 "G's", (500 lbs. on each riser) the miniforce riser equipped rig would require 2 lb. less pull force to breakaway...or 4 lbs. vs 6 lbs., plus housing friction. I doubt the average jumper would be able to tell the difference.

[mr2mk1g 10]

hey caspar mate,

both the Jav and the Wings the club owns have hard housings. If you like I'll point them out to you on Thursday along with riser inserts which both rigs also have.

Nice to see you're taking such a pro-active approach to learning.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Nice to see you're taking such a pro-active approach to learning.

Amen to that.

For Great Deals on Gear

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

Damn Sparky,

Now you made go get my old drawings out. I have a number of sets of drawings for the 3-ring systems dated Nov '97 from RWS. For the Type 8 Standard type on Pages 5, 6 & 7 are a number of dimensions, some with tolerances and some without.
I think if you were to contact RWS they might provide you with this set of drawings (or even an updated set).

Hope that this helps.

G A (Jerry) Baumchen

[mjosparky 4]

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Damn Sparky,

Now you made go get my old drawings out. I have a number of sets of drawings for the 3-ring systems dated Nov '97 from RWS. For the Type 8 Standard type on Pages 5, 6 & 7 are a number of dimensions, some with tolerances and some without.
I think if you were to contact RWS they might provide you with this set of drawings (or even an updated set).

Hope that this helps.

G A (Jerry) Baumchen

Will the RWS be able to give me the dimensions and tolerances on the risers made by Aerodyne? The ones with their new "MiniForce" rings? Those are the ones I was referring to.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[dorbie 0]

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So, if a 200 lbs. jumper was spinning at 5 "G's", (500 lbs. on each riser) the miniforce riser equipped rig would require 2 lb. less pull force to breakaway...or 4 lbs. vs 6 lbs., plus housing friction. I doubt the average jumper would be able to tell the difference.

Especially when their arm is increasing in weight under the same Gs.

[billbooth 10]

Funny you should mention that...About two years ago I had a bad spinner on a prototype tandem canopy. The "G's" were so high that I didn't even have to pull the breakaway handle. I just unhooked the Velcro, and the weight of my arm did the pulling for me. It happened so fast that it caught me off guard. (I was planning to pull slowly enough to get an idea what the pull force was...Data...I need more data!) Anyway, we were flung so hard to the side, that the reserve opened horizontally instead of vetically. Point is, the weight of your arm in a high "G" mal can actually help you breakaway.

[Reginald 0]

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About two years ago I had a bad spinner ...(I was planning to pull slowly enough to get an idea what the pull force was...Data...I need more data!)

Bill I know you take your work seriously but damn…

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[tdog 0]

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About two years ago I had a bad spinner ...(I was planning to pull slowly enough to get an idea what the pull force was...Data...I need more data!)

Bill I know you take your work seriously but damn…

On some rainy day I am gonna just search and read all on Bill's posts in the order in which they were posted... As of this moment, it will be 515 posts... Call it a "Booth day". I bet I will learn a lot... Gotta fly tomorrow for work. Perhaps I will print them out for the plane ride...

[JerryBaumchen 1,360]

Sparky,

I have my doubts that Aerodyne will provide this info. But give it a go; all that can happen is they will fail to respond (as they seem to do with my requests).
If you do get the info, how about contacting me; I'd like a copy, just for info and education.

[mjosparky 4]

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Sparky,

I have my doubts that Aerodyne will provide this info. But give it a go; all that can happen is they will fail to respond (as they seem to do with my requests).
If you do get the info, how about contacting me; I'd like a copy, just for info and education.

You are right, I have and they did. If I do come up with anything I will be sure to pass it on to you and others.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 643]

Soft housings were only offered on (1-pin) Teardrops (Thomas Sports Equipment), Javeonins (Sun Path), Flexons (Rigging Innovations) and '94 Talons (R.I.). By the time my Talon 2 was built in 1997, R.I. had switched to semi-hard housings and by the end of the year had gone to full hard housings.
There were two problems with soft housings. First, many of them were in-correctly routed. I blame the routing problem squarely on Sun Path and R.I. who took several years to publish decent drawings on how to install them correctly.
During a series of suspended harness tests with a Javelin, I found that pull force varied from 5 to 25 pounds, depending upon the routing.
TSE, SP and RI eventually returned to full hard housings because the average skydiver is not bright enough to install cutaway cables correctly in soft housings.
While managing the loft for R.I., I retrofitted hard housings to dozens of Flexons and '94 Talons. Since leaving R.I. I have also retrofitted hard housings to dozens of Javelins.
The second problem blaimed on soft housings is now attributed to massive line twists that squeeze the ends of cables when risers wrap up tightly. The second problem was solved by installing hard housings in risers.

[RMURRAY 1]

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The second problem blaimed on soft housings is now attributed to massive line twists that squeeze the ends of cables when risers wrap up tightly. The second problem was solved by installing hard housings in risers.

you cannot purchase hard housings in the risers of Racers because John Sherman concluded several years ago that they are NOT needed. Having said this, I would like to see side by side test results with a Racer (w/ maintainance-free red cable) and Racer risers compared to Vector3, Mirage or Javelin --- ie the 2-bloke test.

rm

[riggerrob 643]

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The second problem blaimed on soft housings is now attributed to massive line twists that squeeze the ends of cables when risers wrap up tightly. The second problem was solved by installing hard housings in risers.

you cannot purchase hard housings in the risers of Racers because John Sherman concluded several years ago that they are NOT needed. Having said this, I would like to see side by side test results with a Racer (w/ maintainance-free red cable) and Racer risers compared to Vector3, Mirage or Javelin --- ie the 2-bloke test.

rm

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hee!
Hee!
Just to mess with you, John Sherman (owner of Jump Shack dba. Parachute Labs, etc.) insists that cable squeeze is not an issue. John claims that many hard cutaways are caused by risers twisting relative to harness rings (i.e. RW-8).