What canopy for a newbie?

[DOA 0]

Hi,
No doubt this question has been asked mant times, so forgive me. I'm going to Florida to do my AFF and consolidation jumps. Seeing as I'll be in the USA I figure a canopy (I'm assuming it's a complete unit, ready to jump so to speak) will be cheaper, so I plan to buy when I'm in the USA (NO VAT !!) But my question is what "CHUTE" should I be looking for? I dont want to end up having to upgrade 6 months down the line as I get more experianced. As u can probably guess I know nothing about chutes! Be gentle !!

Thanks
Phil.

any info would be great.

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When I learn new stuff, it pushes the old stuff out of my brain!

[AggieDave 6]

Firstly, you should really talk to your instructors as to what size and type canopy will be appropiate for you.

Secondly, some canopies to think about: Sabre2, Spectre, Triathalon, Safire2, etc. Personally I would pick the Sabre2 at an appropiate size for an appropiate wingloading, as suggested by your instructors.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skybytch 273]

You may find this and this to be helpful.

[Dazzle 0]

If you are going as a beginner I'd hold off on buying kit just yet. You'll be supplied kit for your jumps and you can rent after that for a while, then you'll know a lot more than you do at the moment about what sort of kit you want.

There is quite a lead time for new kit so depending on when you want to go it might not be ready for you anyhow.

there are "import" arrangements that can save you the VAT or better still you could plan a return trip to collect your kit.

Personally there is enough good second hand kit available that I'd suggest waiting till you've qualified and check out what suits you for a first set of kit. You might be amazed of the amount of new kit that is put up for sale by people.

[tdog 0]

Once you talk to enough instructors and people around the DZ - you will "know" the answer to this question...... Have you read up on skydiving/canopies yet... Brian Germain's book is pretty good... You can find a lot by searching this site, but don't believe what you read, always double check everything with sources you trust.

Some terms you should learn, if you don't know them already:

Wing loading.
Elliptical. Square.
7Cell. 9Cell.


If you don't want to "upgrade" in six months, like you said, plan on renting or using the DZs gear for the first 50 jumps or so... You will make the biggest progression (or at least I did) in the first 50 jumps... My wing loading went from .7 as a AFF 1 student to 1.1 to 1 by 50 jumps (with the blessing of people who I trusted), and I plan on staying there for a while.

[DOA 0]

Sorry, I should have explained a bit more.

I just wanted some idea of what cost I have to consider for a chute that wont restrict what I can do. I wont set eyes on an instructor until I hit the USA. I'd like to hit the USA with an opinion of what I want, and have the cash to hand. I dont know if weight and size make a differance. I'm 5".11, 13.5st, medium build.

I'll check the links thanks. I'll also check out some new and used prices on the modles suggested. Again thanks you.

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When I learn new stuff, it pushes the old stuff out of my brain!

[AggieDave 6]

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I wont set eyes on an instructor until I hit the USA. I'd like to hit the USA with an opinion of what I want

Bad idea. Read all the gear reviews and such to learn about the gear out there, but be open minded when you get to FL as to what size and type of gear you should get. Think of it a bit like shopping for a car, and you've got to pick out your first car. Your parents (instructors) are going to help you make a good choice for something that is fun to drive and not boring, but something that isn't over your head. You really shouldn't have that shiney new Ferrarri for your first car, its too much. You also don't want to end up with Grandma's old station wagon.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skybytch 273]

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I just wanted some idea of what cost I have to consider for a chute that wont restrict what I can do.

You can expect to spend upwards of US$4000 for a complete all new rig with AAD.

Forget about your gear "restricting what you can do." When you buy, buy something that you can safely land 100% of the time, in all conditions, at your current experience level.

It's cheaper to downsize your main in 6 months to a year than it is to recover from breaking yourself because you bought something too small.

[DOA 0]

Doh ! I need to go away and do some reading me thinks.

So u cant just walk in a shop and buy a chute off the peg? Is there a glossary of terms on the site anywhere?

Phil.

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When I learn new stuff, it pushes the old stuff out of my brain!

[DOA 0]

Fair point people and all taken on board. I'll read up.

Thanks
Phil.

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When I learn new stuff, it pushes the old stuff out of my brain!

[mr2mk1g 10]

A "chute" is made up of a "main canopy", a "reserve canopy", and a "harness and container system" (the backpack and leg straps etc) at the minimum. Its more than likely you will also want an "AAD" (Automatic Activation Device – opens reserve in case of unconsciousness/stupidity).

Some of this you can buy off the peg. The main and reserve should be of an appropriate size (dependant on you weight initially) and design (ie a Ferrari is going to kill a learner driver... don't buy a Ferrari ). These can be bought off the peg but are more commonly built to order.

You WILL have to upgrade 6 months down the line. Using what you'll be jumping 6 months down the line right from the get go will guarantee death or injury. I am not joking. Just take that fact on board and go with it... its a fact of the sport.

The AAD is an electrical box of tricks and can be bought straight out of the box. The harness and container system is almost always built to order when new. It is built to your exact measurements. They are also often bought second hand and generally fit well enough... but it can be difficult to find the container you're looking for straight away as the second hand market is much quieter than you might be used to. You might also not like pink. Second hand gear is often from the 90's. Pink was popular in the 90's.

I would recommend getting licensed first before you even think about kit. You kit requirements will change very quickly as you start up. You don't want to have to be buying new every few jumps. It's much better to start looking at what you need once you’re qualified... you'll also find that 75% of your questions have been answered by then.

Budget for as much as £4,000 for brand new everything. You don't need brand new everything. Seriously, you don't. You can increase the amount of new and custom stuff as you gain experience and know exactly what you want. You can get perfectly jumpable second hand everything for as little as £1000. A nice middle ground is probably the best.

Have fun on your AFF course - you'll love it.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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If you are going as a beginner I'd hold off on buying kit just yet. You'll be supplied kit for your jumps and you can rent after that for a while, then you'll know a lot more than you do at the moment about what sort of kit you want.

It depends on your local rental situation.

I bought a rig at jump 13.

I wouldn't have known any more if I waited because all the rental rigs all had Skymaster 295s. The general consensus was that I should buy a 190 or 210 preferably a PD (not a Sabre).

Since AFF students had priority, that would mean making only 1-2 jumps a day.

And I would have spent a lot more. While a main depreciates about $1/ a jump I was spending $25 a jump.

In that situation you buy something that fits at an appropriate wing loading. With the delivery time on custom gear, if I'd gone that route and enough rental rigs were avaialble I could have dropped my first rig in the dumpster when my new gear showed up and still come out ahead financially.

The original poster's financial situation will be more complicated because of the higher prices in Europe.

[BIGUN 1,297]

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Is there a glossary of terms on the site anywhere?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=35

Please read all of the following:

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[tso-d_chris 0]

PM sent

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[tso-d_chris 0]

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You WILL have to upgrade 6 months down the line. Using what you'll be jumping 6 months down the line right from the get go will guarantee death or injury. I am not joking. Just take that fact on board and go with it... its a fact of the sport.

Some of the best canopy pilots in the sport put their first several hundred jumps on a canopy with a very low wing loading. This is probably a huge contributing factor in becoming some of the best pilots. There is no reason a first rig cannot last a few years. It takes a lot less skill to walk away from a landing at a low wing loading than a high wing loading. On the other hand, it takes a lot more skill to swoop a boat (very large canopy) well than it does to swoop a tiny canopy.
Of course, it is not always about the swoop, especially for new jumpers. Still, I can think of no good reason to have to buy another rig after only six months in the sport. Better to make a wise decision right up front. DOA seems to be trying to educate himself the best he can before he gets in over his head, which is the first step in making wise decisions.

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[AndyMan 7]

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You WILL have to upgrade 6 months down the line.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with this statement.

I kept my first canopy, a triathlon 190 loaded at 1.1 for well over two years and 300 jumps.

There is absolutely no reason someone needs to downsize from their first canopy in less than 2 years.

BillVon's list of skills recomended before downsizing is here. Read it and know it.

It's very unlikely someone would master all these skills in six monthes, their first year in the sport.

-flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet
-flare turn at least 45 degrees
-land crosswind and in no wind
-land reliably within a 10 meter circle
-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing
-land on slight uphills and downhills
-land with rear risers

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[kelpdiver 2]

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You WILL have to upgrade 6 months down the line.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with this statement.

I kept my first canopy, a triathlon 190 loaded at 1.1 for well over two years and 300 jumps.

There is absolutely no reason someone needs to downsize from their first canopy in less than 2 years.

But isn't that the appropriate canopy choice 6 months/50 jumps after AFF, not right now for the student in question?

[AndyMan 7]

Well, I guess he needs to decide how he wants to use his canopy. Additionally, I'd made a few assumptions.

I don't think he's asking if he should go buy a 288 Navigator. I think he's asking "what's a good first canopy for me?".

Without a doubt, he should be discussing this with his instructors. As a student, they are definately his best source of good information.

That said, a good first canopy is one that he can jump conservatively at 20-ish jumps, and learn advanced flight techniques at 200 jumps.

That often means something like a conservatively loaded Saber2, Safire2, or equivalent. If he's a lightweight, he might look for a .9 wingloading. If he's a heavyweight, he might consider up to 1.1. His instructors can give him guidance here.

PD canopies are currently on 12 week back-order. I presume by the time a new canopy ships he'll have close to 20 jumps, and about ready for a 1:1 wingloading. As long as he has a good dialog with his instructors, they'll be able to help him choose appropriate gear.

I had only intended my advice to knock down the suggestion that once he gets 50 jumps he should plan on downsizing. That is certainly not the case.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[speedy 0]

A big one With pretty colors
That has a wing load no higher than 1.0

One that is slightly less elipticle than an elipse that is not tapered to much.

I dunno, ask your instructors

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[mr2mk1g 10]

Regarding my "will have to upgrade" comment - yes I agree that is far from necessary.

I merely stressed things that way to draw the original poster away from wanting to buy now what he would like to be jumping in 6 months. I wrote it as a direct counter to his wish not to have to "upgrade" in 6 moths.

Just wanted to instill in him the concept of buying what you are ready for now, not what you're ready for in 6 months.

What he's ready for now is something like a manta 288. Who wants to buy one of those as a first rig? What he'd be ready for after AFF is still not really what he ought to be buying as a first canopy.

If he's jumping in the UK (I'm guessing from the VAT comment) he's much better off waiting till he has a few post student jumps under his belt and is actually ready for his first canopy before going ahead and buying it. Over here that takes time.

[DOA 0]

Blimey ! I've started a flaming thread ;-)

In a nut shell fellas, I just want as much advice as I can get. I want to READ the theory before I hit the DZ. I'll only be hitting the USA for 7 days (and thats at least 2 months away), in that time I want to fit as much in as possible as the Brit weather is going to seriously impact my learning curve when I return.

To that end I dont have an instructor to hand to talk over the in's and out's of my requirements. Plus, Also, gear is a hell of a lot cheaper in the USA than in europe. I'm selling every gadget, half hearted hobby gear, and my plasma screen may even get sold off to make the required cash to make this my only commited intrest in life. BUT, the reason I wanted gear opinions is so I can aim to a target cost ,,, so my plasma may not have to go !!!

I still have lots of reading up to do. But found forums the best way to get the theory before any practical. Just getting to grips with wingload (wing area/body wieght = wingload!) But my math aint good ;-)

Thanks for the help everyone.

Phil.

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When I learn new stuff, it pushes the old stuff out of my brain!

[TAndrews 0]

Being a newbie myself, I recommend asking your instructors. In Florida there will be plenty of places that have appropriate used gear. If you find a rig that is forgiving but is able to accomodate a one to two size decrease in canopy size, you can be ready to downsize when the time is appropriate.

This will = a huge savings. I/E more money to jump

[alw 0]

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Blimey ! I've started a flaming thread ;-)

.

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Sage advice from people so far, with the appropriate level of concern and emotion for a newby. Keep us all posted as to your progress at getting to FL. Hang at several of the DZ's if you get the time (7 days isn't much). Also - fill in your profile - it'll help people talk to you.

Things you may want to consider, study, and discuss with your instructors in addition to main canopy size:

The "Fit" and style of the harness
The size of the reserve
How everything fits together

The first step to avoiding a trap is knowing that it's there (Thufir Hawat). If you're going to be well informed "go deep". I was at the DZ this week and I asked the AFF 4 waiting to gear up which rig he was using so I could get geared up (AFF's have priority) - his response was "I just jump what they put on me". You're already headed beyond that mindset.

I'm a newby to ram airs and z-po, but not to plf's or life. When you don't know what you don't know, do what you did - ask.

See you in Ratland

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Every day is a bonus - every night is an adventure.

[freakflyer9999 1]

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Hi,
No doubt this question has been asked mant times, so forgive me.

Newbie gear questions come up several times a month if not week. Couldn't one or two of the better threads on the subject be made sticky?

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Just getting to grips with wingload (wing area/body wieght = wingload!)

actually, it's exit weight (body weight +clothes+gear)/surface area=wingloading!

Example: Jumper weighs 150, and is wearing thirty pounds in clothes and gear, his exit weight is 180 lbs. If he is jumping a 200 square foot canopy, his wingloading is 180/200 = 0.9 lbs. per s1quare foot., or 0.9:1.

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