oxygen for aircraft up to 18.5 k and TSO-C64

[Manuel1 0]

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If medical grade oxygen has moisture in it then why is it every time i go to pick up a patient on continuous o2 are they on a humidifier? As far as i know all forms of o2 that comes in a can that is meant to be breathed wheather its medical grade or SCUBA oxygen is completely dry.

No such thing as "scuba O2". The "standard" air fills is just compressed air. If you get a air fill for ice diving, it is hyper filtered and at least a grade E if you mix the gases such as Nitrox mixes. I have not found any company using anything less than a grade E for a breathing gas. I talked with my Airgas rep today and they will not fill a medical or a scuba tank with welding O2. He just laughed and asked why would you want to do that. As far as moisture content, o2 is a dry gas within itself. it is a oxidizer (it isnt flammable) for pure o2 wont burn. I will breath a standard compressed air fill (21% o2 and 78% nitrogen) and my mouth is very dry. I can breath a 40% o2 mix and my mouth is no less dry. It is just a dry gas. But make no mistake, it does have moisture in it and it can crystalize. I had it happen to me several times. Why try to purchase a welding gas to sustain life. That just dont make sense to me.

[Manuel1 0]

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>In North America, there are insignificant differences between medical
>oxygen, aviator's oxygen and welder's oxygen, because it is all
>chemically pure.

Indeed, all are identical nowadays.

BOC gases was purchased by the Linde group which owns Airgas a while back. All of the BOC that I dealt with is now AirGas. Have you tried to purchase a welder grade o2 from Airgas with a medical grade bottle? OR are you purchasing a welders grade o2 in a welders bottle and "whipping" it into a medical grade bottle?..

All o2 IS NOT identical. PLEASE dont promote this thought. This is very bad advise.

[billvon 3,006]

>Have you tried to purchase a welder grade o2 from Airgas with a medical
>grade bottle?

Nope. I just buy welding O2 and fill the aviation bottles with a transfiller. I asked them (Westair) about their process for medical and aviation O2 and it is the same source in all three cases; just different fill adapters. They don't do medical fills themselves - apparently a medical supply company uses their facility to fill their bottles. So there may be a "secondary step" where they inject water or something.

>OR are you purchasing a welders grade o2 in a welders bottle and
>"whipping" it into a medical grade bottle?..

No, it's a small aviation bottle. This is the one I usually use for bailout O2:

http://www.aeromedix.com/product-exec/parent_id/1/category_id/5/product_id/1323/nm/Spare_Oxygen_Cylinder

[riggerrob 643]

"Moisture content of Medical oxygen from hospital and bottled oxygen should be close to 0. It goes through dryers to take all moisture out.


Respiratory Therapists (RT) and anesthesiologists add moisture by the use of different devices depending on how the oxygen is delivered. Low flow, high flow, upper airway or lower airway.


If the patient is using Nasal prongs in most cases the RT does not add moisture because the dry oxygen is diluted with moist room air. Assuming a room temperature of 22 C and a relative humidity of 50% the Absolute humidity of the room air would be 10 mg/L. We can add humidifier bottles is the nose gets dry or we are using larger flows of oxygen. If we deliver the gas to the lower airway (life support) we will use a heated humidifier to mimic the nose to heat and moisturize to 37 C with Relative humidity of 100% to achieve 43.8 mg/L.


I hope this helps,


Larenda"

....................................................................

At least that is the standard in Canadian civilian hospitals.

[Manuel1 0]

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>Have you tried to purchase a welder grade o2 from Airgas with a medical
>grade bottle?

Nope. I just buy welding O2 and fill the aviation bottles with a transfiller. I asked them (Westair) about their process for medical and aviation O2 and it is the same source in all three cases; just different fill adapters. They don't do medical fills themselves - apparently a medical supply company uses their facility to fill their bottles. So there may be a "secondary step" where they inject water or something.

>OR are you purchasing a welders grade o2 in a welders bottle and
>"whipping" it into a medical grade bottle?..

No, it's a small aviation bottle. This is the one I usually use for bailout O2:

http://www.aeromedix.com/product-exec/parent_id/1/category_id/5/product_id/1323/nm/Spare_Oxygen_Cylinder

It would be interesting to see if they would fill your o2 bottle from thier bulk welding o2 whip hose? If THEY would be willing to take that liabilty.

There are so many regulations on breathing gases. The NFPA 1500 (fire dept scba) the CGA 67.1, USN air L-1 standards, the Federal spec BB-1034 codes.

Keep in mind on moisture content that as the temperature decreases, the gas ablilities to hold water as a vapor decreases. When the breathing gas reaches the dew point temp, water vapor condenses into a liquid or if the temp is low enough it crystalizes. Even the diabolitic of the gas moving from the storage bottle through the smaller passages of the flow meters will cause a crystalized effect.

[Manuel1 0]

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>In North America, there are insignificant differences between medical
>oxygen, aviator's oxygen and welder's oxygen, because it is all
>chemically pure.

Indeed, all are identical nowadays.

I found this in from one of my heliox classes on mixed breathing gases. Grade E o2 gas is 24ppm dew point and Grade G (aviation o2) is 7 ppm dew point. So there IS a moisture content difference, or I should rephrase this by saying there SHOULD be a difference if the gases is being tested and properly filtered.


Parts Per Million/
Dew Point Gas Standard or Test Result
24 ppm/-65 °F Allowed maximum for CGA G-7.1 Grade "E"
7 ppm/-81 °F Allowed maximum for mil-spec Aviators Breathing Oxygen (ABO), a reasonable benchmark for acceptable H2O content in breathing gases for SCUBA diving.
Less than 7 ppm/-81 °F Test results for Fill Express gases
Note that whereas the difference between 24 ppm H2O and 7 ppm H2O may be significant to SCUBA equipment, it's extremely unlikely that humans can detect a difference during respiration. Regardless of the precise water content, any compressed breathing gas for SCUBA is going to seem very dry when inspired from the second stage of a SCUBA regulator.

[skydivefj 0]

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Remember, it all comes down to what the authorities on the far side of the world tell our Kiwi friend what he needs to use.
If they say AVIATOR'S, then thats what he needs to use.

It was only ever going to be aviators O2 as that is the most relevant, Duh, and fortunately it is the easiest to obtain (that would have to be a first in aviation history!)

Funnily enough (peculiar), our instructions are all ambiguous, I cannot disclose exactly what was said because that would probably not be a good idea, but what we hve learned that this (for now) is still a grey area that is not covered well enough in the current part 149(sport aviation) scenario, that is currently in place in New Zealand commercial skydiving regulation.

The NZ CAA has announced that they will be starting to administer a part 115 (commercial adventure aviation) with submissions starting this october I beleive...

This will hopefully help eliminate the bullshit politics tha has tainted the indistry over the pst decade as the original (singular) part 149 (certifecate) in New Zealand was taken from the NZPF (non profit FAI affiliated) in 2001 (or so) and snaveled by a company that is owned by the old boy dropzone owners and labelled the New Zealand Parachute Industry Association (monopolyville). The ensuring political bullshit that is rife today prevailed.

Why?

Commercial skydiving in New Zealaand would have to 'take in' somewhere around 50 million dollars annually give or take.

Skydiving is not the only industry that is effected by this and New Zealand only has 4 million people so this is all very significant.

The CAA did not see it coming it seems...

Quote

Part 115 was put to the Industry as an NPRM in 1999. This NPRM attracted a number of
comments, and prompted a review of CAA’s policy which limited proposed “extreme” activities.
The Part 115 Project was suspended in June 2002 due to other CAA priorities.
Over the last two decades several sport and recreational aviation activities have grown into
significant commercial operations. In certain cases these activities have been advertised on Tourist
Brochures available at Information Bureau’s throughout the country.
The rules for sport and recreation aviation activities were written for pure “amateur” sport and
recreation activities, and were not designed for commercial operations. These rules comprise Part
149 Aviation Recreation Organisations – Certification, and the Part 100 series covering Operating
Rules for various sport and recreation activities.
While most people operating under these sport and recreation rules act responsibly, the attitudes of
some give rise to concern. There is pressure from within the civil aviation system for safety
practices and administration to be improved.
Part 149 was never intended to be an operational rule and therefore has no provision for this
commercial activity. In any case Aviation Recreation organisations certificated under Part 149, do
not have the structure or procedures to be able to assure the Director that hire or reward activities
can be, or are being, carried out safely.
In 2003, a further request from Industry and CIRAG to review the need for Part 115 was based on a
concern that operational standards might not meet the same levels as Part 135.
In July 2006 the Director agreed to CAA policy recommendations that there is a need to introduce
a new CAR Part 115 to regulate adventure aviation. In summary, the CAA policy is to:
• define a new category of aviation activity within the general aviation sector to be called
“adventure aviation”;
• regulate the various activities that make up the adventure aviation sector through a new rule
Part 115;
• develop within the proposed Part 115, a set of general requirements for certification that
are applicable to all adventure aviation operators with sub parts of the rule containing
standards applicable to specific activities;
• include, as a key element of the proposed rule part, a requirement for individual operators
to hold an aviation document issued under Part 115; and
• administer the proposed Part 115 utilising industry experience as much as is practicable,
consistent with their level of capability and their desire to be involved.
5/CAR/1 Part 115 - Adventure Aviation Project Scope Statement
Civil Aviation Authority 2
“Adventure aviation” will cover any activity or combination of activities, where passengers are
carried by air for hire or reward and the primary purpose of the activity is the experience of flight
in the aircraft, or of engaging in the aerial activity itself. It is not a substitute for air transport or
commercial transport operations that are required to be certificated under Part 119.

We will likely be among the first to gather the part 115 certification as we are already the first to operate our aircraft under part 135 (air transport operators) in the country. This is purely due to the source of our leased aircraft, but this is a direction the NZ CAA want to move towards. Too many busy DZ's smashing out loads all day with private pilots and aircraft serviced privately...

Give em a cathida and a back of chippies and a coke, maybe a susuage wrapped in bread at lunch time and you make millions.... Slight exaggeration.

At present it seems to me through actually talking to people that are supposed to know, O2 systems for skydiving in NZ have been more or less unregulated as they have been portable systems in private aircraft...

We will be using the same portable type, but in commercial aircraft, also this Part 115 gig is on the doorstep, so we are researching more about it than others would/may have previously done before, and it seems not many/enough people know very much about the subject.

I did talk to an engineer today that the nice lady up at PAC in Hamilton put me onto, about 02 systems.

After telling me how to do it for about $10k by installing it to the airframe with aluminium tubing, he told me that if it is portable, then there is no certification needed as far as the aviation is concerend but the cylinders etc would have to meet their own industry standards.... which clarified a great deal really. We have basically been told by CAA also that we just need a system that works for our engineers. Round in circles...

so I guess we are hovering around the top of the regulation.

I am going to do a course in Oxygen Handling. I seems there is not much advertised for this, unless you want to spend a day or 2 learning about what to give to a punctured lung, or pnuemonia... or about deep or cold scuba diving and mixing gas...

I'll ask the guy at BOC when I inquire about our account tomorrow.

I do really appreciate all the replies here, as the thought processes in reading them have very much helped my endeavour to do this right...


... still lots to learn but definately getting there.

[billvon 3,006]

They said they would do aviation fills, but I've never had them try. Of course one could use that aviation bottle for medical uses if one so chose. I actually use my big O2 tank both for aviation refills and brewing; not even sure what category I would fit in to.

[totter 2]

Quote

operate our aircraft under part 135 (air transport operators) in the country

Didn't realize that.
Since you have to jump through all the hoops and hurdles anyway a permanently installed system would be the way to go.
Good to hear that you have the basics and some help over there. Suprised PAC didn't want to sell you an airplane to go with the O2 system.
If you go with the permanent system look into a Kevlar O2 bottle. Their expensive but their almost half the weight and, I believe, the Hydros are due every 15 years as opposed to 6 for a standard cylinder.

Have to ask. How come a Kiwi dropzone flys a Porter and not a PAC? Would make for some real good BS on General Skydiving.

[skydivefj 0]

Quote

Didn't realize that.
Since you have to jump through all the hoops and hurdles anyway a permanently installed system would be the way to go.

I don't think so, since the aircraft we are and will be using are not ours and are lease aircraft it seem sill to me to spent in excess of NZ$10k for a system when we can legally and safely use a portable system the we can source for less than $1000.

Quote

Good to hear that you have the basics and some help over there.

Yeah it is good and people have been as helpful as they could have been, but we still have been going around in circles.

Quote

Suprised PAC didn't want to sell you an airplane to go with the O2 system.

They kinda did, but when I asked them about the price of a lease Cresco (for comparison) they told me they do not make them anymore. We wen't on to talk about the two that are for sale right now, she got the gist that I was just wanting a price though...

Quote

If you go with the permanent system look into a Kevlar O2 bottle. Their expensive but their almost half the weight and, I believe, the Hydros are due every 15 years as opposed to 6 for a standard cylinder.

Thats sounds nice but expensive, down the track when we purchase that aircraft we may look at a mod like that, Pilatus has a facvtory mod that would be nice but it is about $10k too from what I have heard...

Quote

Have to ask. How come a Kiwi dropzone flys a Porter and not a PAC? Would make for some real good BS on General Skydiving.

That is an ambigous question, I beleive you are referring to the PAC XSTOL?

There is 2 (nearly 3) of those I beleive, One or two of the DZ's in taupo have one, and wanaka have just purchased one (as seen on the DZ.com homepage stories).

There are about 3 or 4 crescos out there now but the companies using them are moving to XStol and Caravan due to the booming market here...

PAC also make the Cresco which is in the class that we would look at if we were not in our current position, It has much faster sortie times than an XSTOL and for a small dz with not much plant (rigs) would be more economical. If hotloading, you can easily do 3 sorties an hour in a Cresco. It is a real shame they stopped making them for the XSTOL, as the XSTOL is great but only for DZ's with 6-8 tandem masters and the plant to keep the aircraft in the air...

I think many small to medium sized dropzones in America could do with a cresco, Porters are nice but they are expensive, we are using a Porter because of our unique situation but probably wouldn't even look at one if we were not, due to this factor.

The nice lady did say if somebody or a conglomorate would order 10 or more Crescos they would make them...

But there are 2 really nice ones on the market right now anyway....

[totter 2]

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and are lease aircraft

True. Forgot that you mentioned that.

Quote

That is an ambigous question

I had to ask.

[skydivefj 0]

Quote

:

Quote

and are lease aircraft

True. Forgot that you mentioned that.

Quote

That is an ambigous question

I had to ask.

I was quite tired when i wrot the last post and read and answered as if you akes how many are using PAC and answered as such..

my bad.

I see you answered your own question yourself though despite my ranting tangent there.

[michaelmullins 81]

Quote

*Aviation grade oxygen;
- 99.5% minimum oxygen content.
-Tested for moisture content because of the risk of freezing at high altitudes. Maximum moisture content is guaranteed.
-Higher cost when compared to the medical and welding grades.

*Medical grade oxygen;
-99% minimum oxygen content.
-Regulated the same as prescription drugs.
-Maximum level of CO and CO2 gas is guaranteed.

*Welding (Industrial) grade oxygen;
-99.5% minimum oxygen content.

*Research grade oxygen;
-Highest grade of oxygen.

http://www.zaviation.ca/training/oxyfacts.htm

Just as a follow up on my previous post, my O2 supplier just delivered 4 bottles of O2 for the 30,000' jumps we have scheduled this weekend. I had ordered 4 bottles of Aviator Breathing Oxygen but he had only 3 bottles on the truck so he asked if it was OK to give me 1 bottle of Medical Oxygen "as it was exactly the same and came out of the same hose". Of course, I said OK. As a practical matter, oxygen suppliers make sure that their oxygen always meet the highest standard so that they can use it interchaneably in all their bottles, regardless of the end use. It does not make economic sense for them to use different standards.

[Manuel1 0]

Quote

Quote

*Aviation grade oxygen;
- 99.5% minimum oxygen content.
-Tested for moisture content because of the risk of freezing at high altitudes. Maximum moisture content is guaranteed.
-Higher cost when compared to the medical and welding grades.

*Medical grade oxygen;
-99% minimum oxygen content.
-Regulated the same as prescription drugs.
-Maximum level of CO and CO2 gas is guaranteed.

*Welding (Industrial) grade oxygen;
-99.5% minimum oxygen content.

*Research grade oxygen;
-Highest grade of oxygen.

http://www.zaviation.ca/training/oxyfacts.htm

Just as a follow up on my previous post, my O2 supplier just delivered 4 bottles of O2 for the 30,000' jumps we have scheduled this weekend. I had ordered 4 bottles of Aviator Breathing Oxygen but he had only 3 bottles on the truck so he asked if it was OK to give me 1 bottle of Medical Oxygen "as it was exactly the same and came out of the same hose". Of course, I said OK. As a practical matter, oxygen suppliers make sure that their oxygen always meet the highest standard so that they can use it interchaneably in all their bottles, regardless of the end use. It does not make economic sense for them to use different standards.

As medical o2 is safe for a breathing gas, I would be leary of what a driver or counter person says about gas mixtures. I just had a driver deliver me a argon mix (c02/argon) for my stainless steel welding shop and the driver said it is the same gas as 100% argon which is what I ordered. They are not the same gases and WONT work on SS. The biggest thing you want to be careful from the medical o2 and the aviation o2 is the moisture content. Just from the o2 flowing through the flowmeters could cause the gas to condense and could crystalize. The aviation o2 gases are hyper-filtered.

[michaelmullins 81]

Quote

Quote

Quote

*Aviation grade oxygen;
- 99.5% minimum oxygen content.
-Tested for moisture content because of the risk of freezing at high altitudes. Maximum moisture content is guaranteed.
-Higher cost when compared to the medical and welding grades.

*Medical grade oxygen;
-99% minimum oxygen content.
-Regulated the same as prescription drugs.
-Maximum level of CO and CO2 gas is guaranteed.

*Welding (Industrial) grade oxygen;
-99.5% minimum oxygen content.

*Research grade oxygen;
-Highest grade of oxygen.

http://www.zaviation.ca/training/oxyfacts.htm

Just as a follow up on my previous post, my O2 supplier just delivered 4 bottles of O2 for the 30,000' jumps we have scheduled this weekend. I had ordered 4 bottles of Aviator Breathing Oxygen but he had only 3 bottles on the truck so he asked if it was OK to give me 1 bottle of Medical Oxygen "as it was exactly the same and came out of the same hose". Of course, I said OK. As a practical matter, oxygen suppliers make sure that their oxygen always meet the highest standard so that they can use it interchaneably in all their bottles, regardless of the end use. It does not make economic sense for them to use different standards.

As medical o2 is safe for a breathing gas, I would be leary of what a driver or counter person says about gas mixtures. I just had a driver deliver me a argon mix (c02/argon) for my stainless steel welding shop and the driver said it is the same gas as 100% argon which is what I ordered. They are not the same gases and WONT work on SS. The biggest thing you want to be careful from the medical o2 and the aviation o2 is the moisture content. Just from the o2 flowing through the flowmeters could cause the gas to condense and could crystalize. The aviation o2 gases are hyper-filtered.

I have seen them fill the bottles. Same hose goes into whichever bottle they fill whether it be Aviation, Medical, or Welding. They simply use the highest standard which automatically meet all the standards. There is definitely no difference in moisture content between the three. Don't know anything about Argon, just oxygen.

[pchapman 279]

Yet more perspectives on the aviators / medical / welding oxygen issue:
(This is not about the original poster's N. Zealand issue.)

1)
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182079-1.html

Although 11 years old, this article by a high time pilot also concludes that it's all the same stuff, and that non-aviation oxygen should be legal at least to the FAA.

Oxygen specs can be confusing because you get percentages that may be volume per volume, or mole per mole, or weight per volume, or don't have an explanation what "%" means.

2)
Next, there's a technical discussion of the different oxygen grades (eg, grades A through E and beyond) at

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lpt/oxlabel.htm

That source gets into a lot of detail and suggests that there can be differences. Industrial oxygen would get refilled without a vacuum purge that is used for medical or aviation oxygen for long term safety. Also, what is called the aviation oxygen grade (E) is stricter than the minimum US grade for human use (A) for water content. (Yet the previous article mentions an older document that specifies only grade A for aviation.)

Still, that doesn't clarify actual supply quality vs. just the specifications.

3)
From Mountain High, a well known designer of aviation oxygen equipment:

http://www.mountainhighoxygen.com/index.phtml?nav_id=25&article_id=18

Part of what they say is:

Quote

Contrary to a common myth, there are no different grades of oxygen being produced or contained in cylinders maintained under DOT regulations. In addition, oxygen for medical use does not have any more moisture than oxygen for any other purposes. Furthermore, because of the chemical nature of oxygen it must be as pure and dry as possible if stored under pressure or else the cylinder and equipment may be damaged, or worse, personal injury or death may occur.

By the very nature of the state-of-the-art process commonly used by compressed plants today, oxygen produced for any purpose will be better than 99.99% pure. In other words, it all originally comes from the same spout. What happens thereafter is why there is a set of hygiene protocols detailing the handling, inspection and transportation of oxygen to ensure purity at the destination.

[rhys 0]

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More effective regulators are constant-flow; these regulators guarantee a volume of O2 instead of a pressure, and are thus better suited for aviation systems. A good supplier of them:

http://www.mhoxygen.com/

Hi all,
For some reason I have to speak on behalf of the company rather than haveing a separate accounf to Skydive Franz so I can no longer post under Skydivefj as a representative of the company.


In the end we have researched and contacted engineers, gas suppliers, gliding clubs, medical practitioners etc etc and in the end all roads lead to Mountain High.


All the glider pilots I talked to get their systems from there and the major commercial skydiving operations here in NZ do also.

I is going to cost us a little more than we expected but in the end it is best to have the best tool for the job...

A Porter and a mountain High portable aviation oxygen system.

I thank you all for your detailed and educational posts, some relevant and some not but all have given me/us a better idea of what we are dealing with.

To clarify we will be using aviation grade oxygen and it costs very little to keep a J size cylender full.

We will decant from this to our MH system.

Thanks again,

Rhys and Skydive Franz Team

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix