wing loadings for jumpers with 50-100 jumps

[Daskal 1]

As a USPA Coach I give advice about basic group freefall skills, exits, clear-and-pull jumps, tracking, and teach the general portions of the FJC. As I stated before, I refer students questions about canopy selection and control to a USPA Instructor. When it comes to licensed skydivers, I will give them any advice I choose when they ask me for it. Im sorry that you think that my rating is a joke, but once again, I havent recieved any complaints from my students, except that sometimes i'm too busy with school to chill with them after jumping. One thing I agree with though, I don't believe that people with 120 jumps should be under crossbraced canopies. I once asked one of my former Instructors when I had around 100 jumps if I could fly his Xaos 21 (97), and he said that there is no reason to jump one unless you want something heavily loaded and are very good at swooping after jumping elliptical canopies for a few hundred jumps. Standard 9-cell ellipticals on the other hand, I think can be safely flown by heads-up jumpers with 150+ or so jumps, if they feel that they are personally ready. I actually found the Nitron to be less ground hungry and more fun then the Jedei I was flying, although I enjoyed the Jedei alot too.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Its no point to argue with ChasingBlueSky or Ron.

Reasons:
1. They are right most of the time.
2. They do take you or anyone serious under 500 or their jump number......

[DancingFlame 0]

So, are you jumping elliptical at 190 jumps?
Do not want to be a canopy nazi, but is seems a bit scary...

[Ron 10]

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maybe you think that because you think that you're wiser that your thoughts coincide with the wise.

That is noramally how it works.

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i'll be here tomorrow and the next day

Every dead and broken skydiver thought the same exact way.

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in my experience, those with above-average ability progress on a steeper learning curve than the average

And the problem is you may only THINK you are above average...just like everyone else...Hell I THOUGHT I was above average at you experience level also....It took me almost bouncing to get my wake up call....I hope you don't have one, and if you do, I hope you live through it...Many don't.

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don't mean to be a dick, but i've been listening to the bullshit for too long.

And I don't mean to be a dick (Really I don't) But I have been listening to the "I'ts OK, I'm better than average, I have mad skills." From guys that really don't know what they are doing.

I find it funny that the experienced guys all seem to be taking one stand, and the sub 300 jumpers seem to be taking another....

Gee, I wonder which side has a better grasp of the situation?

You comments are just like those of some kid that wants a Corvette for his 16th Bday...He MIGHT be able to handle it...But history has shown it is a bad move...Of course he will not admit that.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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reckless advice? here's some advice; stop making friends with injury-prone people.

OMG.....

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The bad part of thinking that you're a big fish is that you think that you have the right to tell other people that they don't know what they're talking about.

Look. I have more BAD skydives than you have total jumps. You may think you have all this experience...But you have less than 200 jumps. Chasingbluesky has done everything you have done in this sport at least TWICE. And I have done everything you have done at least 16.5 times. I have jumps on 69 sf canopies, been in 16 way CRW diamonds, have a PRO rating with 100 live demos (Over half your total jumps into tight landing areas) Been on formations with over 100 people, jumped SL from 800 feet with 50+ pounds strapped to me, and been teaching this sport for 8 years.....Hell, I am comming up on 100 TANDEM jumps....I have done 160 training jumps in one mth.

The problem is you think you are experienced, and in the big picture you are not.

The scarry thing? I'm not either.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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So, are you jumping elliptical at 190 jumps?
Do not want to be a canopy nazi, but is seems a bit scary...

Yes, that can be a very scary thing if you do not have the right training. In fact it can be deadly. However, with the right training from your first jump, it is very easy to have someone on a 9 cell tapered canopy at that jump level. There are a few people on this board that have done this, and have done it safely. Yes, I was under a Stiletto before I had 200 jumps but the amount of canopy control that was taught to me was more than most people will ever get (and it was taught to me by very experienced jumpers). You would be surprised how many DZs wouldn't let me jump there under that canopy at my experience level until I had Roger Nelson call them and vouch for my experience under that canopy. Our training program has made believers out of many people - talk to John LeBlanc, he has seen the results of our canopy control and to this day he references our program in his talks.

The problem I have with the way this thread is going is the bulletproof attitude and wreckless advice that is being given. I don't listen or respect people under 500 jumps? That is pretty funny considering I helped create a group that specifically works with that group of jumpers to make sure they stay safe and are always learning. Check out the front page of DZ.com about Team Funnel and our fundraiser and our mission, then tell me I don't respect newbies.

I had reckless friends? Actually, not really. The thing that still bugs me to this day and gives me nightmares about their deaths is some of them were the most conservative jumpers I knew. Like many others on here, I watched them die, I saw their accidents and it wasn't something I want anyone else to have to witness again. Jump numbers didn't matter either - it spans 50 jumps to 9000 jumps. Yes, I know that more will die, but I can help educate and lead by example and maybe prevent one or two people from killing themself. Also, you would do wise not to mock the dead - it makes you look ignorant not knowing what happened. And if you don't learn from the dead you are destined to follow in their path.

The longer I am in the sport the more I realize how much I don't know and how much better I need to get. I know too many people that are better than me and have been in the sport over 25 years and I respect everything they tell me. You would be wise to adapt this perspective. Be a student of the sport until you hit 100,000 jumps and you will become a great jumper, well respected and people will seek out your opinion and experience. I know I am not a big fish, in fact every year I am in the sport I realize how much bigger the pond really is and how much more I need to grow.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Fast 0]

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Its no point to argue with ChasingBlueSky or Ron.

Reasons:
1. They are right most of the time.
2. They do take you or anyone serious under 500 or their jump number......

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Want to really convince me that you are above the curve? You are only a short drive from Deland and Zhills. Some of the top skydivers and instructors in the world happen to jump and work at those dz's. Go to Deland and watch the test jumpers and most of the full time jumpers. Bug some of them to watch your canopy flight and control. After they hear you talk and your attitude I'm sure they would be very interested to work with you. Then come back here and tell me what they say to you.

BTW - I did this very early on. I asked one of the test jumpers from PD to watch a few of my landings and give me some advice and what they thought of my control. You might be surprised at what they have to say.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Daskal 1]

Your post above was a perfect example of why people on this board piss me off. It was okay for YOU to fly a Stilletto when you had under 200 jumps, but its "reckless" for ME to fly my Nitron with 190 jumps. The only difference between me and you is that I don't make negative hypocritical judgments about other skydivers. I support them in making the decisions that they have chosen to make, and the only people making stupid complaints about it are the people on this board. I admit that im not an outstandng canopy pilot, nor the most knowledgable skydiver on this board, but I have been jumping safely, so far, and nobody on the DZ seems to think that i'm some kinda danger to other people. Next thing you people will complain about is the fact that I dont wear a helmet when I jump, or that I only got an RSL with my rig out of respect for my DZO who told me about the dangers of low cutaways.

[tcnelson 1]

i have no doubt that you have more knowledge about skydiving than me. that's not the point. furthermore, i totally understand where you're coming from; i just don't agree with it. your analogy about the corvette and the teenager is not valid because teenagers tend to do reckless things behind the wheel but that doesn't mean that someone flying a canopy that you think is too small for him/her will do reckless things under it.

bottom line: i don't think that i'm experienced relative to you. i do think that i'm just as capable and i think that anyone who feels confident and who has not shown any behavior that has endangered the well-being of someone else, has every right to fly whatever canopy he/she chooses.

canopy piloting is an individual sport.

ps. the reckless advice comment was designed to be over-the-top ridiculous because that's what chasing's comment to daskal was.

edited for messing up daskal's name.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[pilotdave 0]

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bottom line: i don't think that i'm experienced relative to you. i do think that i'm just as capable

Just as capable? Why in the world would you think that? I've never met Ron, but I just assume he's not such a slow learner that he's only at your level after so many jumps.

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i think that anyone who feels confident and who has not shown any behavior that has endangered the well-being of someone else, has every right to fly whatever canopy he/she chooses.

I totally agree with you there. When you're all by yourself in the sky, go ahead and jump whatever you want. I just wouldn't wanna be in the area! Problem is, this is a sport where you can kill others, not just yourself. You dont have to lack confidence or have demonstrated that you're dangerous before to screw up. And as its been demonstrated many times, the faster your canopy is, the more less leeway you get when you screw up.

Out of curiosity, do you think airplane pilots should be treated the same way? Would you be comfortable under canopy, flying in the national airspace system, knowing that the planes flying around you are being flown by pilots with an unknown level of training? The guy flying that learjet might have 100 hours... That perfectly fine as long as he's managed to land the thing without killing anyone a few times?

But anyway.... I'm REALLY enjoying this thread. Keep disagreeing with people that were once in your shoes and have learned from it.

Dave

[tcnelson 1]

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***he's only at your level after so many jumps.***

you must mean he's only at your level, Dave.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[pilotdave 0]

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you must mean he's only at your level, Dave

Good comeback. But no, I meant your level. You're the one that said it. But anyway, I'm gonna go on a limb here and guess Ron may be slightly more skilled at canopy flying than I am. To think otherwise would be absurd, wouldn't it? And I only have a few more jumps than you do.

Dave

[billvon 2,989]

>Your post above was a perfect example of why people on this board
> piss me off.

Then you may not want to post here. This is a discussion board; if you post something that other jumpers think is foolish or dangerous they will give you their opinion, just as you might give them yours. If you want people to compliment you on your decisions regardless of whether they are good decisions or not, try a board with more whuffos.

> The only difference between me and you is that I don't make
>negative hypocritical judgments about other skydivers.

There is a difference between you and I, as well. When my friends make errors in judgement, errors that can kill them, I tell them I think they are wrong. If they try to drive home drunk, I don't tell them to have another beer before they go. If they get into drugs, I don't clap them on the back and say "good for you!" It takes a little courage, sometimes, to give people an answer they don't want to hear instead of being the good guy all the time, but it often results in having more of your friends survive in the long run.

They are, of course, free to do whatever they want. I feel that it is my obligation to give them good advice rather than advice that just might kill them. You might feel differently; that's fine. But if you post your opinions here you will get feedback. Decide whether you want to post accordingly.

>I support them in making the decisions that they have chosen to
> make, and the only people making stupid complaints about it are
> the people on this board.

It's too bad they don't have friends that care enough about them to help them through tough decisions, decisions that might result in their being crippled or killed. Most of my friends have been more willing to help me out, even when I didn't want to listen. There have been several times in this sport (usually coincident to me getting a new rating) when I thought I knew everything; I know better now.

>I admit that im not an outstandng canopy pilot, nor the most
> knowledgable skydiver on this board, but I have been jumping
> safely, so far, and nobody on the DZ seems to think that i'm some
> kinda danger to other people.

You've survived all your jumps so far. That doesn't mean you are on a safe path through the sport. I have watched people in almost exactly your position progress through the sport. Most listened to the other jumpers trying to help them. Some didn't. One is now dead, another will never walk again. Two others broke their femurs, and that scared them enough to start listening to the advice they were getting.

Now, you may indeed be one of the prodigies in this sport who never needs instruction, advice or extra training, or you may just be very lucky. If so, I hope your luck holds out. I have found that relying on experience, good training and good judgement is a better decision than hoping for luck. But as always, it is your decision.

[Kris 0]

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Your post above was a perfect example of why people on this board piss me off. It was okay for YOU to fly a Stilletto when you had under 200 jumps, but its "reckless" for ME to fly my Nitron with 190 jumps. The only difference between me and you is that I don't make negative hypocritical judgments about other skydivers. I support them in making the decisions that they have chosen to make, and the only people making stupid complaints about it are the people on this board. I admit that im not an outstandng canopy pilot, nor the most knowledgable skydiver on this board, but I have been jumping safely, so far, and nobody on the DZ seems to think that i'm some kinda danger to other people. Next thing you people will complain about is the fact that I dont wear a helmet when I jump, or that I only got an RSL with my rig out of respect for my DZO who told me about the dangers of low cutaways.

yadda, yadda, yadda, blah, blah, blah!

The difference is that Bo learned how to fly his canopy at SDC. A DZ that is known for their amazing canopy control program that starts at jump #1 with their students. The difference is that Bo was taught to respect the wing he flies, he was taught about advanced canopy flight theory, and he has been coached on it as well. The big difference is that, as a result, Bo is a lot more likely not to let his canopy get anywhere his mind hasn't been to at least 5 minutes before. If someone throws a flat turn at him he's more likely, with his training, to flat turn away from it rather than bury a toggle and show us all his femur.

Hell, I can count on only one hand how many DZ's across the country go to that level with their students. I wish all of them did, but only a few do.

Most students are lucky to learn to fly under Manta's, not graduate off of student status on Safires and Sabre2's at 1:1.

I'm sure you haven't had any complaints from your students, but honestly, they don't know enough to know when they should complain. They look to you for guidance and experience. Agreeing with someone's choices just because they're a friend is doing them a potentially grave misservice.

I used to be you a few years ago, and to this day I amaze myself that I'm still walking the planet at times. I got lucky, the next guy probably won't.

I agree with Ron....Don't you think it's interesting that those of us with 300+ jumps and more than a few years in the sport have the same viewpoint? That should tell you something right there.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Fast 0]

You want to talk about people making thier own choice and this and that. Sure people have to be responsible for thier own actions and thier own choices but...

What happens when a friend makes a choice because of your support to jump a canopy that he isn't capable of handling and kills himself. Who should have to share the responsibility for his death then? Surely the jumper that died for making the wrong decision but also the person who made him feel he could jump it.

If a person is wishy washy and just seeking out someone who will tell them its ok to do regardless of if they should be doing it, that is what your going to give them. An excuse to go kill themselves. Maybe they will get lucky but maybe not. I guess the whole tell a person what they want to hear thing sits poorly with me.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[kelpdiver 2]

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Your post above was a perfect example of why people on this board piss me off. It was okay for YOU to fly a Stilletto when you had under 200 jumps, but its "reckless" for ME to fly my Nitron with 190 jumps. The only difference between me and you is that I don't make negative hypocritical judgments about other skydivers.

The key difference between you two is he made it through that period. Many like him did not. You - only time will tell.

This is common to many sports beyond skydiving. Diving, motorcycling, climbing - all have a danger period where people progress to a level of difficulty faster than their experience has grown. Some get through fine, either through luck or actual skill. Some get bit on the ass and either dial down, or quit the sport. A few die. In worse cases, they take someone else out with them. If it were not for that concern, they'd be happy to let you do whatever you wish.

[tonyhathaway 0]

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canopy piloting is an individual sport

It is if you do hop-n-pops by yourself. Unfortunately, others share the same airspace as you when you do normal altitude freefall stuff. Flying a parachute safely doesn't only mean that you don't turn too low. Thats the easiest part. There is a LOT more to it than that.-Tony

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[tcnelson 1]

obviously, i meant flying a canopy (the skill aspect) is an individual sport. you're right though, it is important to not bang into other individuals in the sky!

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[tcnelson 1]

don't know...never met him...i try not to assume to much as it has biten me in the ass before.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Did you actually read my post? Have you gone to my website or read the article on the front page? Have you taken a moment to breath, forgo the pride and listen to a few people?

Yes, I was under a Stiletto early. MANY people (ie Skybytch) had issues with that at the time. Their concern caused me to do more research, ask around more and try to understand their issues. Their objections combined with the training I received may have helped keep me alive.

You cannot just randomly downsize and jump around on canopy types when you are still getting the basics down. Yes, there are many that have done that and lived. Lucky them! Those of us that have moved to semi-eliptical canopies early on have been trained - you've seen the responses on that.

I'm a good canopy pilot, not amazing. I still make mistakes and you won't see me on the PST anytime soon. I feel that others can be like me and I see them every weekend. I don't have issues with them and their progression because they are being properly trained from jump one. I believe in the SDC way of doing things (a lot on here don't) and have seen it work. My point of view on canopy progression doesn't match up with some of the people that are siding with me on this. It is possible for people to jump canopies early on that others feel are deadly. BUT YOU NEED THE TRAINING!!! YOU NEED PROPER PROGRESSION! There is a good chance that you may be one of those people that are lucky enough to move that quickly through canopy progression. However your attitude is dangerous and reckless. The advice you are giving is deadly. Your progression seems unsafe just by how you talk. I challenge you to go to Deland and get one of the factory teams to watch you in the air.

Story time:
A couple of weekends ago I downsized and tried a high performance canopy I never jumped before. On the way up the winds changed direction and strength - the landing pattern was fucked. I ended up on the wrong side of the windline and had to land out and pick the best spot among trees to land. I was set up for my landing when the person off to my right at level with me decided to make a blind 90 degree turn right at me about 400 feet above the ground. I never panicked, had that person in my sight the entire time, and executed a controled emergency turn to avoid getting killed. I no longer had a chance to get to my spot and had a few seconds to pick between two alleys of trees. What I couldn't see through the trees were the rocks on the ground and the ditch that went uphill in the middle of my landing area. I pulled it off. I got lucky. What saved me was my training and my understanding of how a canopy will behave.

Somehow I don't think you would be quite as lucky with the way you are jumping around so quick on canopies. Why do you need to make so many changes so quick? What is the reason? Pick a canopy, pick a safe size and jump it for the next year or two. Understand that canopy, learn all about it (that takes more than 50 jumps on it)....it may save your life one day.

BTW - notice the guy who has 11,000+ skydives (an average of 1200 a year) that posted in this thread jumps a Spectre 120? What do you think he knows that you don't? Tony is an amazing pilot. You could learn a bit from his canopy selection and his advice.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[teason 0]

***It was okay for YOU to fly a Stilletto when you had under 200 jumps, but its "reckless" for ME to fly my Nitron with 190 jumps. The only difference between me and you is that I don't make negative hypocritical judgments about other skydivers


No, I think the difference is that we've learnt for our mistakes and the mistakes of others and it seems that you believe you won't make them.

You HAVE to learn from the mistakes of others.
You won't live long enough to make them all (and god knows some of us have tried).

You also said "I don't encourage people to fly canopies they do not feel that they are ready for."

What makes a novice the authority on which canopy is right for them? They are new in the sport and don't even know enough to know that they don't know! That's why there is different levels of lisencing. An "A" holder does not have the same priviledges as a "D" holder. As have to wear helmets just incase they exercise poor judgement on landing. Shouldn't canopy choice also get the same consideration?

By the way, don't you need a "D" lisence to jump without a helmet?

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[nathaniel 0]

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We're talking about something different here. If the largest percentage of city-folk deaths occured because they went beyond a 5 block radius of their house without chaperones, you'd have a good argument against staying within a 5 block radius

When we talk about wingloadings everybody seems to play fast and loose with causality.

What proportion of people die more than 0.25 miles from home and without a chaperone? I'd guess it's a fair portion. Think of all the suffering we could prevent!

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[teason 0]

hold on there nathaniel, I think your missing the point bigtime.
No one is suggesting that we make everyone jump Mantas til they get a "D" license. We are in the sport because we believe in taking responsibility in our own actions and managing the risks we chose to take.
Those of us on this side of the ledger are suggesting moderation, Training and accurate assessment of skills when down sizing. We are pointing out that experience AND judgement are the main factors for both jumper and the instructor giving their advice here; not canopy size.

That being said, the question becomes can someone with 50 to 100 realistically possess those skills in order to fly a HP canopy safely in ALL situations (bad spot, down winders, avoiding obstacles) and if so what load/shape. We all have to agree that each jumper has his limitations.
I believe that is up to those with a shit load of experience to teach the jumpers coming into the sport to recognize theirs and to point out ,even to other high timers when they are exceeding them. We owe it to them because they are the future of Skydiving.

Others such as Daskal feel that it is the individuals right to assess themselves on what is right for them.

Although I respect the perspective, my personal opinion is that it's like letting the clown acts run the circus.
How can you know what you're ready for when you don't know what it is.
I believe that's where the Experienced people come in.
It's not about extremes(and you have proven that point) it's about the approach we should be taking with novices. Its about understanding the consequences of our suggestions.

And remember when you got a friend who REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to try your tiny canopy and REALLY REALLY REALLY promises he won't do anything stupid, It can also be about avoiding eye contact with his family at the funeral.
You're not doing anyone any favors by doing them a favor.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[damion75 0]

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Your post above was a perfect example of why people on this board piss me off. It was okay for YOU to fly a Stilletto when you had under 200 jumps, but its "reckless" for ME to fly my Nitron with 190 jumps. The only difference between me and you is that I don't make negative hypocritical judgments about other skydivers. I support them in making the decisions that they have chosen to make, and the only people making stupid complaints about it are the people on this board.

I notice that this has now become about you... but when it started, this thread was about what you were prepared to advise other people to do.

While I would rather that you took more care of yourself and did not take chances with the skydiving fatality statistics, in truth I am more concerned about the newbies who you might encourage to come along on that ride with you. For their sake and their families... please don't 'help' them get canopies that will damage / kill them. No matter how much you think they can handle them.

After all, what's the hurry? You have the rest of your life to get better...

I think Nathaniel was joking above - I thought it was pretty funny!

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.