Ron 10 #76 June 10, 2004 Quotei have no doubt that you have more knowledge about skydiving than me Then why to you doubt that my opinion of lowtimers under highly loaded elipticals is a bad idea? See I don't follow that. You admit I know more and have done more...TO INCLUDE everything you are doing now. But my opinion is not as valid as yours? Um, I have done already what you are now doing...And I have done more since then. Kelpdiver said it bestQuote The key difference between you two is he made it through that period. Many like him did not. You - only time will tell. And to be honest I almost didn't make it. I was young (20 when I started), and dumb (thought I knew everthing). When I was at your jump numbers...What makes you think that you are not? Hell, I thought I knew it all back then... Quotefurthermore, i totally understand where you're coming from; i just don't agree with it. You have already admitted I know more than you about skydiving...So why don't you agree with this? What makes your opinion more valid than mine? Quote your analogy about the corvette and the teenager is not valid because teenagers tend to do reckless things behind the wheel but that doesn't mean that someone flying a canopy that you think is too small for him/her will do reckless things under it. Its totally valid...You think that the kid with the vette is different than some kid under a canopy? BOTH are gonna do stupid things...You think the kid with the vette PLANS on wrapping it around a tree? I can't think of one jumper who PLANNED on hooking it in. And the vette has breaks. There is a reason that 16 year olds don't drive vettes...And its the same reason that new jumpers should not fly highly load elipticals. Both don't know enough to be safe yet. Quotebottom line: i don't think that i'm experienced relative to you. i do think that i'm just as capable You think you as good of a canopy pilot as me? I have over 3,000 total jumps, over 2,000 jumps under a stiletto at 1.7. A PRO rating and 100 live demos (Over half of your total jumps into tight landing areas). Was on a CRW team, have done 16 way diamonds, jumped canopies from rounds to 69 square foot Xbrace canopies. And done test jumps for two different companies. Quotei think that anyone who feels confident and who has not shown any behavior that has endangered the well-being of someone else, has every right to fly whatever canopy he/she chooses. Tell that to these people. Quotecanopy piloting is an individual sport Only if you are doing solo hop n pops over an area with no one on the ground."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #77 June 10, 2004 or tell that to these people in the jump range we're talking about http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=12%2F14%2F1995&MaxDate=5%2F30%2F2004&Place=&State=&Country=&Category=LOWT&MinAge=17&MaxAge=78&UnknownAge=on&MinJumps=50&MaxJumps=300&UnknownJumps=on&AAD=&RSL=&Description=&DescriptionOperator=OR&Lessons=&LessonsOperator=ORI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #78 June 10, 2004 Was this for me, or him? cause I knew this already "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #79 June 10, 2004 QuoteAnd to be honest I almost didn't make it. I was young (20 when I started), and dumb (thought I knew everthing). When I was at your jump numbers...What makes you think that you are not? Age, skill, and experience (not just in skydiving), just like anyone else. QuoteYou think that the kid with the vette is different than some kid under a canopy? BOTH are gonna do stupid thingsI haven't. QuoteYou think you as good of a canopy pilot as me?I think I could land your canopy just as safely as I land my own. QuoteTell that to these people. I can't; they either fucked up or were unlucky. QuoteOnly if you are doing solo hop n pops over an area with no one on the ground. Like I told someone else in this thread, obviously, it is important to not bang into others in the sky (or on the ground). And yes, time tells all, doesn't it."Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #80 June 10, 2004 Quote Its totally valid...You think that the kid with the vette is different than some kid under a canopy? BOTH are gonna do stupid things...You think the kid with the vette PLANS on wrapping it around a tree? I can't think of one jumper who PLANNED on hooking it in. A good friend of mine always wanted a Vette. And when he got out of Cal and got a nice paying high tech job, he went out and bought it. Probably was 22-23. And then unfortunately, he totalled it, taking out another car in the process (thankfully the damage was almost entirely to the vehicles). He was turning out of a side street with a friend and wanted to show some throttle, instead spun out of control. The engine is just a bit too powerful to floor the pedal while doing a 90 degree turn. After that he spent 5 or 6 years driving a Saturn as penance. Not necessary, but he didn't want to repeat that experience. Could he have been told that moral ahead of time - probably not. The young man's desires for a hot truck or car are hard to stop. But could his story have ended up much worse - definitely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #81 June 10, 2004 Quote QuoteYou think you as good of a canopy pilot as me?I think I could land your canopy just as safely as I land my own. That seems to me like a pretty asinine statement. I would bet that you would get away with it on a few jumps, but I doubt it would be consistant and it would sure be pushing your luck. Why would you openly recomend to another person to risk it all on a high WL HP canopy so early on.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #82 June 10, 2004 >I think I could land your canopy just as safely as I land my own. On what do you base that? Have you demonstrated the ability to flat turn, flare turn, front riser hook, rear riser land etc extremely heavily loaded ellipticals under both good and bad conditions? If you have done so, then you could make an argument that you can land such canopies quite safely. If you haven't, a statement like yours is a pure guess (and, in my experience, usually inaccurate.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #83 June 10, 2004 QuoteWhy would you openly recomend to another person to risk it all on a high WL HP canopy so early on. Possibly because he has yet to see someone hook it in. It'll happen someday, it'll be someone he knows and maybe even admires, and he'll find himself thinking more like many of us do. Ted - getting away from what you jump and how many jumps you have. You're a USPA coach, correct? As such, do you not have a responsibility to encourage safety to novice jumpers? Do you not see a conflict between that responsibility and advising someone with 50 jumps to fly a canopy they load at 1.3+ or a more aggressive canopy type? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #84 June 10, 2004 Holy crap. I have 1000 jumps and there is no way I could jump a Stilleto 107 as safely as my Sabre 170. It's like saying I'm as safe driving my car as I am riding my Suzuki GS750. It makes no sense. To say that you are as safe under the Stilletto proves you do not understand how a smaller canopy can reduce your margin for error. They are less forgiving and therefore can't be as safe.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #85 June 11, 2004 QuoteAge, skill, and experience (not just in skydiving), just like anyone else. Including all the people that are now dead...They all thought they could handle it, and all thought they were better. But I guess you are gonna say you are better then all of them huh? QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You think that the kid with the vette is different than some kid under a canopy? BOTH are gonna do stupid things -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I haven't. Yet....And BTW some think you are dangerous....A DGIT I was told...I hope they are wrong....I hate dead people. QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You think you as good of a canopy pilot as me? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I could land your canopy just as safely as I land my own. You are smoking crack. I have 2,000 jumps on that canopy. Anytime you want to compete against me, let me know. We can do accuaracy, swoop lanes, water swoops, carves. Bring it on. QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tell that to these people. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't; they either fucked up or were unlucky. And you will not fuck up? NBFT.... I hope you and your brother don't kill each other with your "Formation" landings. I'm done here. To quote a great movie.... "Your ego is writting checks your body can't cash""No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #86 June 11, 2004 QuoteA good friend of mine always wanted a Vette. And when he got out of Cal and got a nice paying high tech job, he went out and bought it. Probably was 22-23. And then unfortunately, he totalled it, taking out another car in the process (thankfully the damage was almost entirely to the vehicles). He was turning out of a side street with a friend and wanted to show some throttle, instead spun out of control. The engine is just a bit too powerful to floor the pedal while doing a 90 degree turn. Same basic story about a friend of mine...Young Vette tried to show off... He now has a plastic plate and webbing to hold his stomach in. Really creepy. It seems he was found with his new vette wrapped around a tree. His guts were out and wrapped around his feet. The scooped him up, and gave him a new plastic stomach... He can't do situps since he has no muscle there. Sad thing is I have MANY more stories about new guys and fast canopies than I do young guys and cars or bikes."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #87 June 11, 2004 You think you as good of a canopy pilot as me? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I could land your canopy just as safely as I land my own.*** That's a bold statement. Could you consistently and in varying conditions land a 1.7:1WL stiletto safely in a ten meter circle surrounded by obstacles, and the consequences of hitting said obstacles are certain injury? I'd bet Ron could. Remember, under canopy, you only get one shot. Don't answer me here, either. I grow weary of the incessant buzz of the nameless rabble of newbies out there who are self-proclaimed prodigal pilots. They would all do well to show some humility and a modicum of respect to those who were in the sport way before them. Ask yourself the above question about whatever canopy you fly. And ask it in a quiet room away from the DZ, where you don't have to worry about what other people think. Do so because you do yourself no favor by dishonestly answering the question. Hopefully you've chosen a canopy with which you have the skill and reaction time to get yourself out of a jam. Hopefully your not flying a wing that you can only land when you're being careful or conservative, and have room for error. Hopefully you won't swoop your eye out. As you say, time tells all. It also makes fools of all of us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heims 0 #88 June 11, 2004 This is not directed at anyone in particular. I just wanted to keep it with this thread. I would like to know what more experienced skydivers think/know about a few things. What do we do to change this death trend? There will always be those who believe their skills are better than they really are, and nobody is going to be able to verbally convince them otherwise. So why not use the experience to design and require a skills test for downsizing? What are the objections to this? If canopy pilots are as good as they claim, then shouldn't they be able to pass a skills tests? I also wonder why someone can just "go to another DZ" that doesn't know them and be allowed to jump a canopy that is beyond their skill. How can we change this? Story: I recently had a 68 jump wonder who was just coming back from a year layoff, tell me he was planning to downsize to a 135 (he actually said he really wanted a 120 but I at least got him off that one). The last canopy he jumped was a Monarch 155 with a wingloading of 1.2. He's gained a little weight over the year off too (5-10 pounds). He only has an A-License partly due to the fact that he doesn't have the accuracies necessary to get his B. I heard he sent for a Cobalt 135 demo. I don't know if they actually sent it to him. (I hope not.) What (if any) policies do canopy manufacturers have regarding their demo programs? Does anyone have any experience with whether a manufacturer would send the demo to someone in this situation? (of course I assume (yes, I know. Dangerous.) he didn't lie on the form). Do manufacturers actually check the facts (in other words, call the dealer/DZ listed on the form to verify anything if they ask for a contact)? I would love to hear some thoughts. Blue skies, Sherri Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #89 June 11, 2004 how ironic; i'm already tiring of the rabble from the oldies."Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #90 June 11, 2004 Quotehow ironic; i'm already tiring of the rabble from the oldies. And I never say this.....But you deserve it. You act like such a skygod. A legend in your own mind. I only hope you get to BE an old skydiver. My offer still stands....I will swoop against you anytime kid. I have more bad hook turns...than you have jumps. You want to impress me???? Survive long enough to get 3,000 jumps without breaking anything. Im done here...It's clear you think you already know it all....Just like a teenager."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #91 June 11, 2004 Quote So why not use the experience to design and require a skills test for downsizing? What are the objections to this? If canopy pilots are as good as they claim, then shouldn't they be able to pass a skills tests? This has been suggested to USPA more than once in the past year or so. Last year several of the regular posters here contacted the USPA S&T committee about this, which resulted in a new section on canopy control being added to the SIM (that's saved a lot of femurs over the past year ) See this thread for a copy of a letter that was printed in Parachutist on this subject in February. Do a search on "Wingload BSR" in all forums here for lots of debate on the subject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #92 June 11, 2004 Quotehow ironic; i'm already tiring of the rabble from the oldies. And with the connections that people on this board have, it would only take a couple of phone calls to have you banned from every DZ within a 12 hour drive from where you live. No one wants a bounce at their DZ. As far as your DZ. Jim is a great DZO and time will tell what happens there. The "oldies" (wow guys, I'm an oldie at 5 3/4 years in the sport!) are concerned about you and your brother simply because of attitude. In fact, I thought you were a troll at first, then after contacting some people I found out that you are this bold in person as well. The people that consider you a friend are pretty certain it is a matter of time before you either hurt yourself or someone else. We are not preaching to you because we don't want you under a specific canopy - we just don't want to read all the bad press and have to deal with it and the negative impact it will have on your dz WHEN you get hurt or killed. Even if you are a prodigy you are ahead of the curve of the best prodigy canopy pilots I have ever heard of. The progression of jumping from a 170 to a 135 in one move is dangerous. Nobody is that good. Do you understand that, nobody. I want you to call every canopy coach out there - the professionals that make close to 100 canopy flights a week - the ones that know how to fly every canopy out there and the ones that have yet to be released. I'm pretty certain they would all feel the same way we do. You have to realize that with the way you are talking, the way you have progressed that we don't need to see you fly. Most of us have seen people like you before and they are either dead, recovering, or will never be the same again. We are saying this for your own good...not because we are "skygods"_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #93 June 11, 2004 >What do we do to change this death trend? Education. Addition of canopy training to license skill requirements. Restrictions on loading based on experience and skill levels, restrictions that you can get out of by taking a canopy control class. Restrictions themselves won't do much, but the required education will. >So why not use the experience to design and require a skills test for downsizing? Exactly! >I also wonder why someone can just "go to another DZ" that doesn't >know them and be allowed to jump a canopy that is beyond their >skill. How can we change this? Only way around this is via a USPA-wide program. I've told people they can't jump a certain canopy at my home DZ; they just go elsewhere. A USPA-wider program would make this much less common. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weegegirl 2 #94 June 11, 2004 Ted, I used to respect you as a fellow skydiver. I wish I could say the same after reading this thread. But this is ridiculous. We have all tried to reason with you, sugar-coating it as your friends. Apparently you can't take a hint. You think you are unbreakable. You are not. I have watched you and your brother skydive. I have been on skydives with you. And I have been scared. You are not special. You are progressing way too agressively. If you were to remain on the canopy you have been flying, quit the team landings, and relax a little in your freeflying, you would be fine. Instead, you are choosing to become more agressive, purchase a smaller, HP canopy, and come way too close for comfort to your brother on landings. I'm afraid for you. Your attitude is frightening. IF you come to our dropzone ever, be prepared to be questioned thouroughly before you are allowed to fly such an aggressive wingloading. We are very safety cautious. Not just for you, but for everybody else sharing the air with you. May I suggest that you take a step back and reflect on some of the discussions that have been had. Take a look at just how many experienced skydivers that disagree strongly with what you are saying. Consider it a warning. I hope you make it, kid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #95 June 11, 2004 Quotehow ironic; i'm already tiring of the rabble from the oldies. And that is what makes you a DGIT in others' eyes. You know, if you'd stop thinking about yourself and your ego for five minutes, you might realize that when you do the things you've been doing, it's not just you that is at risk. You have friends, family, people that love you, all who one day might have to get a call that you hooked your ass in. Could you imagine the feeling your mother would have hearing her sons killed each other? The people trying to help you aren't here to give you shit. We're here because we don't want to see you or anyone else dead because your ego told you it was okay to handle a tiny hp canopy. Go to other dz's. Tell them your jump numbers, your wing loading (or WL when you get your next canopy). Better yet, show them a copy of this thread. I'd put money on it that you wouldn't get off the ground, and if you did, you'd be watched like a hawk (like you need to be now). I used to have the highest respect for you. I used to think you had talent and were heads up about what is safe. This thread has changed all of that. Your ego is eating you alive. I just hope it doesn't kill you. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vt1977 0 #96 June 11, 2004 There is an excellent article written by Chris Lynch here from this month’s BPA magazine. The following quote from the article may prove to be food for thought for some on here… "Wake up, stow your ego and listen to this free advice." Vicki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #97 June 11, 2004 that's some touching stuff, man. didn't you receive my, I'm tired of your rabble memo? i have done nothing dangerous to date. keep that in mind when your spouting more advice and judgements."Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #98 June 11, 2004 Did you guys know that Scott Miller is at SGC this weekend? Last I heard, neither brother is taking the class. BTW - I'm done with this thread and discussion. There is nothing else I can add to this. I hope you prove me wrong and you don't get hurt._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #99 June 11, 2004 Quotedidn't you receive my, I'm tired of your rabble memo? As much as I'm enjoying your replies, I gotta say it's time to just sit back and shut up. Seriously, this one thread is damaging your reputation. I mean, I was shocked to learn that you're not just a troll. I can't believe you actually think this way. But it doesn't matter what I think or what 99.9% of the other people on here think. What matters is the people that know you in person, and obviously their opninons have changed. You should know by now how small a world this is. Your reputation will follow you for a long long time no matter where you go. You've made it clear here that you're not willing to accept any advice, or even pretend to take advice. That's not a good reputation to have. Try to minimize the number of people that know your reputation. Continuing to post this stuff here is a baaaad way to do that. You can continue to skydive with a bad reputation... unless you get blacklisted by the DZOs. But don't expect to be a happy skydiver. But then again, canopy flight is a solo sport, right? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #100 June 11, 2004 Quote i have done nothing dangerous to date. keep that in mind when your spouting more advice and judgements. Okay, how about "team swoops" and being told you're coming close to collision on almost every dive? How about that dive when you exited after Liz and I, tracked into our airspace, and when you claimed you were opening at 5, went screaming past us in freefall on your head when I was in a snivel between 3000 and 3500 ft?? How about the many times I've seen you cork into each other or collide in freefall? How about your "head down" (tracking in reality) into others' airspace? How about your brother strapping a camera to his head at 13 jumps? How about your downsizing? How about landing crosswind in front of other jumpers? How about making hook turns towards buildings leaving no outs? We have witnesses on every account I've named. Don't kid yourself or us. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
