Safety Quiz on uspa.org (question)

[jrjny 0]

I'm having trouble visualizing the below scenario -- can someone elaborate?

After deploying your main canopy at 2,500 feet, your reserve is accidentally deployed when your hand accidentally snags your reserve ripcord handle. The reserve inflates, and the main and reserve canopies are now flying in a biplane configuration with the main in front. You choose to:

(my choice) Pull the cutaway handle and release the main canopy.
Attempt to land while descending under both parachutes.


*Incorrect* Because the main canopy is in front of the reserve, the main risers snag the reserve slider after you pull the cutaway handle. The main canopy slowly pulls the reserve slider higher and higher, eventually choking off the reserve canopy until it’s barely inflated. The main canopy is also not fully inflated. You land hard under the mostly deflated canopies and do not survive the impact.

Thanks,

Jeff

[JackC1 0]

In a biplane configuration one canopy is flying in front of the other, usually staggered at different heights due to different line lengths. The risers all attach to a similar point on the harness so that both main and reserve sliders sit more or less on top of one another.

If you try to chop the main, you run the risk of your main risers catching the reserve slider and snagging on it. The drag of the main canopy snagged on the reserve slider can be enough to drag the slider back up the lines and choke the reserve canopy into a snivel. Not good.

In a biplane configuration, two canopies are usually fairly stable if you're careful flying them and can be ridden to the ground. Side by sides are slightly less stable as a turn on one can cause a down plane but they can still be ridden in. I'd chop a down plane but ride in anything else.

[pilotdave 0]

Here's what a biplane looks like. Imagine if the jumper cut away his main as it was configured in the first picture. MAYBE it would clear his reserve, but it's very likely it would release and immediately catch on the reserve.

This particular jumper didn't follow USPA's guidelines... he shifted the main over into a side-by-side/downplane to clear it away from the reserve and cut away with no problem. Don't try this at home.

Dave

[jtiflyer 0]

Quote

I'm having trouble visualizing the below scenario -- can someone elaborate?

After deploying your main canopy at 2,500 feet, your reserve is accidentally deployed when your hand accidentally snags your reserve ripcord handle. The reserve inflates, and the main and reserve canopies are now flying in a biplane configuration with the main in front. You choose to:

(my choice) Pull the cutaway handle and release the main canopy.
Attempt to land while descending under both parachutes.


*Incorrect* Because the main canopy is in front of the reserve, the main risers snag the reserve slider after you pull the cutaway handle. The main canopy slowly pulls the reserve slider higher and higher, eventually choking off the reserve canopy until it’s barely inflated. The main canopy is also not fully inflated. You land hard under the mostly deflated canopies and do not survive the impact.

Thanks,

Jeff

that doesn't apply in all situations. Are you telling me a sub 100 cross-braced canopy and a 126 reserve are going to fly docile in a down plane? I like choice C, arrange them into a side by side and cut away. tricky to do, but do-able.

Really the answer is D.... Don't end up with 2 out

[dragon2 2]

Nothing flies docile in a downplane

In our FJC we teach:
- canopies flying after each other: GENTLY steer with canopy in front, preferably leaving the toggles stowed and using your rearrisers, prepare for a PLF landing, do NOT flare.
- canopies flying next to each other: GENTLY steer with main canopy, preferably leaving the toggles stowed and using your rearrisers, prepare for a PLF landing, do NOT flare. An advanced option might be to steer this configuration into a downplane and cut away the main.
- canopies both flying down (downplane): cut away the main after sufficient separation is achieved (over 45 degrees) regardless of altitude, it is preferable to disconnect your RSL if you have it (but not absolutely necessary so do not waste time if you don't have any).

And trust me, I've had my own personal downplane once, if it happens you'll know what to do

Ways to get a 2 out include: an AAD that fires when it shouldn't (happened to me @ 2.5k... FXC), a snagged reserve handle or disloged reserve pin, a "real" AAD fire when you were just pulling your main or were going too fast (student AAD, FXC), you pulling the reserve should you find yourself with a damaged/malfunctioning canopy below 1000ft.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Because the main canopy is in front of the reserve, the main risers snag the reserve slider after you pull the cutaway handle. The main canopy slowly pulls the reserve slider higher and higher, eventually choking off the reserve canopy until it’s barely inflated. The main canopy is also not fully inflated. You land hard under the mostly deflated canopies and do not survive the impact.

To elaborate. As soon as you cut-away, the reserve is still flying forward, while the cut-away main is now going straight up and back. Therefore, the reserve flies into the cut-away risers and lines. Those risers may snag the slider, collapsing the reserve, or they may snag on the open mouth of your reserve canopy, also causing partial collapse. There is some old video I've seen of exactly this happening, from I think the Army Gold Knights when they did some test jumping of two-out scenarios (with tertiary reserves).

If the canopies are flying stable in a bi-plane, leave 'em alone and land 'em.

[fcajump 164]

Quote

it is preferable to disconnect your RSL if you have it (but not absolutely necessary so do not waste time if you don't have any).

...On most rigs, it is not necessary. Check the operation on YOUR rig to make sure. With some rigs (Racer), in some configurations (reserve in front ?) MUST have their RSL disconnected.
(I haven't jumped/packed a Racer in over 10 years and then only one... I am sure someone will politely correct me if I misrepresent... )

I had a double once, and did choose to cutaway. (sp-230 main in front of a Fury-240 reserve w/ no RSL, drifting over high tension power ) While it did clear cleanly, also saw the potential for snag.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[billvon 3,070]

>Are you telling me a sub 100 cross-braced canopy and a 126 reserve are
>going to fly docile in a down plane?

No. In a downplane you cut the main away. He's talking about a biplane, which is a stable configruation (and yes, a small canopy will fly stably with a larger canopy in that configuration; the Golden Knights did a bunch of tests with that configuration.)

[burtonjm 0]

Quote

Ways to get a 2 out include: an AAD that fires when it shouldn't (happened to me @ 2.5k... FXC), a snagged reserve handle or disloged reserve pin, a "real" AAD fire when you were just pulling your main or were going too fast (student AAD, FXC), you pulling the reserve should you find yourself with a damaged/malfunctioning canopy below 1000ft.

We had a jumper have a 2 out this summer because her RSL somehow managed to pull the reserve pin when she deployed her main. I don't know the specifics of how it happened but she landed the bi-plane with minimal steering on rears

This shit, right here, is OK

[jrjny 0]

Thanks for all the info guys - I have to read this in detail later tonight.

Appreciate it --

Jeff

[jrjny 0]

I see what's going on - the risk is that the main's risers will snag the reserve slider and choke if off.

Dumb question, but a question -- if you held onto the reserve slider while you chopped the main, why would this not hedge against the worrisome scenario?

Lastly - if you have a stable biplane, what inputs could result in it turning into a downplane, hence requiring you chop if you're above 1000ft?

Thanks,

Jeff

[nite97m 0]

I don't make any claims of expertise, however, here's what was taught to me during the initial student training here:

In a 2-out situation, if the canopies stabilize in either a biplane or side-by-side configuration, you fly it to the ground by very gently steering the dominate canopy (typically the main) and aiming for the largest open area you can find.

From a stable bi-plane, it would likely take pretty large inputs to destabilize the bi-plane and separate the canopies.

If the canopies are situated side by side, you still steer with the dominate canopy, again very gently, and steer against the other canopy.

If they pull apart and start to develop into a downplane, cutaway the main immediately, regardless of altitude. Even if they develop into a downplane at 200 ft, you still cut - otherwise you won't have a canopy over your head when you are reintroduced to the earth. You already have an inflated reserve, so the only concern is recovery arc. Keep in mind though - the reserve's recovery arc from a downplane isn't going to start until the main goes away.

More experienced jumpers, please correct any errors.

Hope this helps.

[LongWayToFall 0]

If you are in a biplane, there is no need to chop. If it is in a downplane, there is no need to worry about the main fouling the reserve, you are going to pound in if you don't cutaway (your course of action is set).
If you have a stable biplane, I wouldn't be trying anything crazy, just gentle inputs. Take a look at the canopies, if the taller one is in front, you should have no problems. If the taller one is in back, then you might be headed towards a downplane. Regardless of altitude, if I get into a downplane, I am going to chop (why wait?)

[jtiflyer 0]

Quote

>Are you telling me a sub 100 cross-braced canopy and a 126 reserve are
>going to fly docile in a down plane?

No. In a downplane you cut the main away. He's talking about a biplane, which is a stable configruation (and yes, a small canopy will fly stably with a larger canopy in that configuration; the Golden Knights did a bunch of tests with that configuration.)

LOL great catch guys sorry I did mean a bi-plane

[DanG 1]

Quote

Dumb question, but a question -- if you held onto the reserve slider while you chopped the main, why would this not hedge against the worrisome scenario?

I was going to try to explain why that might be a bad idea, but I think it would be better for you to think it through. Think about what would happen if you held the slider, cut away, and the main snagged the reserve slider. What would you do next? What if you cut away and the main snagged another part of the reserve (line cascade, fabric, etc). You won't have the clarity of mind or time to think through all the possibilities if this actually happens, so it's a good idea to think through it now and come up with a general plan.

- Dan G

[erdnarob 1]

Amazingly this is what actually happened to me at Perris Valley in 2005. I got a biplane with my Sabre 2-170 and my PD reserve 160. For few seconds I have thought about cutting the main away. But because of the proximity of the 2 parachutes I decided to keep them as they were since looking up, I realized that the wiping effect of the risers when released could make them entangle with the reserve lines. The main was leading the reserve, the toggles of the main had been released but I kept the reserve on its brakes. IMO that helps the main to keep the lead.
My landing was OK considering the circumstances. There was almost no flare.
Therefore, I can tell you that cutting away is not a good idea in this case especially when the two parachutes in a biplane are flying well. Also, I heard after that I just did the right thing by keeping the biplane and not releasing the reserve brakes.
Why disturbing a biplane flying well ? Of course, I flew my Sabre 2 very cautiously doing only minimum turns to keep the biplane perfect.I also think that it is important to have a reserve with lines shorter than the main in that kind of situation. Again IMO that helps the main to lead the biplane avoiding that way to get the reserve trying to go ahead and possibly turning the biplane into a downplane.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[jrjny 0]

yeah, general plan - 2 out and no downplane, drift (as much as possible) into a clear area

[JohnDeere 0]

Wow Dave thanks for a great set of pics!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!