MICRORAVEN 150 RESERVES

[Remster 30]

FYI too,

I dont have many landinsg under it, but my Dash M 181 (made just before the date cutoff for the SB) landed me fine (actually, very very well) on my 1 landing with it at a 1.4 loading.

Remster

[masterrigger1 2]

Food for thought!

As far as wing loadings go, the size of the Micro-Ravens are not sized as the rest of the canopies out there. They are smaller.

You can lay a 150-M on top of a PD143R and it is considerably a lot smaller!

I have ridden a Micro Raven 135 five times, enough to evaluate the flight characteristics. I would not recommend them to anyone..
We actually will not pack them any more as of about 2 years ago.

I have seen more experienced skydivers land on their backs more than their feet just like it is stated in Parachutist.

The article in Parachutist pretty much sums it up from my viewpoint.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[tso-d_chris 0]

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how did it pass TSO testing?

Is there a flare in volved in the TSO test?

(I don't know; that's why I'm asking.)

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[riggerrob 643]

Mr. Hooknswoop,

You are confusing the distinction between opening performance and landing performance.
All parachutes must survive drop tests at heavier weights and faster airspeeds than placarded limits (i.e. 254 pounds at 150 knots).
For example, while drop testing the Aviator PEP, I quickly lost count of how many 340 pound dummies we dropped at 205 knots.

The other side of the equation is landing performance. Just because a canopy survives a heavy weight, high speed opening, does not mean that the operator's ankles will survive landing it at those weights.
The heavier you load any canopy, the smaller the sweet spot for flaring.
Ergo, manufacturers de-rate smaller canopies. The most ethical manufacturers (i.e. Performance Designs) publish weight restrictions based on weight and experience.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You are confusing the distinction between opening performance and landing performance.

Not at all. With the brakes set a reserve TSO'd under TSO C23d to 220 pounds and 150 knots must not exceed a: "max descent rate in the post deployed (brakes set) configuration is 24 FPS and total velocity not more than 36 FPS with 264 pounds under it."

It should not have too high of a descent rate with 220 pounds under it if it can only descend at 24 FPS with 264 pounds under it. If it flares even a little from there, it'll be an OK landing at just under 24 FPS. If it is a round, it will be an OK landing at 24 FPS.

if the stall point is at your ears, then the toggles are set too high. In the case of reserves, the factory decides where the toggles should go. If they increased the length of the steering lines from the brake to the toggle, it would move where the jumpers' hands are when it flares/stalls.

I think MEL is onto something by not packing them. At least we agree on something

Derek

[RMURRAY 1]

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FYI too,

I dont have many landinsg under it, but my Dash M 181 (made just before the date cutoff for the SB) landed me fine (actually, very very well) on my 1 landing with it at a 1.4 loading.

good to hear. I am no fan of Precision stuff but own a 150-M loaded about the same. I have not had a jump on it but will be very careful when I do. I own mine because they are cheaper (ie affordable) used - next time I will go with a PD143R - I'd sell mine to someone loading it closer to 1:1

[masterrigger1 2]

Dang...What's up with you and JP agreeing with me on two different things in a week or so

I must be mellowing out in my old age
Blue ones,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Is there a flare in volved in the TSO test?

No, but there is a maximum, post deployment configuration (brakes set for a square), descent rate of 24 FPS for TSO C23d.

So if a round is TSO'd under 23d, it couldn't exceed 24 FPS with 264 pounds under it and it would be rated to 220 pounds. Of course, you can't flare a round, so this must be land-able safely. So if a square reserve passes TSO 23d and is TSO'd to 220 pounds, it must descend at 24 FPS or less with 264 pounds under it. So with 220 pounds under it, it will decend at less than 24 FPS. If a Raven 109-M doesn't descend at less than 24 FPS with 220 pounds under it, how did it pass TSO tests?

According to Poynter's, 250 pounds under a 24' round will give a 24 FPS descent rate.

I think I'll submit a FOIA request to the FAA for some TSO testing documents for a reserve or 2. Especially since the -M's do not have the required avg peak force on the label as required by the TSO and the manufacturer could not supply me with that information.

Derek

[billvon 3,070]

>Jumping any reserve outside its performance envelope is just asking
> for problems. . . . It is certainly not the fault of the canopy.

While I agree, that does not mean that "any overloaded canopy is just as dangerous as any other." PD, Tempo and Smart reserves do well at high loadings; Ravens don't. The few jumps I made under a MR 150 revealed a distinct desire to stall hard during moderate flares.

Lesson - if you have a heavily loaded reserve, make sure it's not a Raven. (Although the R-Maxx has reportedly fixed this problem.)

[airdog07 0]

I have 1 ride on tempo 120 load it a 1.64, no problem landing, I think they all should be able to land without worrying about stall or any other thing, i have raven-m 135 that is worthless now, lucky i did not have a reserve ride thought.

"A peaceful heart leads to a healthy body; jealousy is like cancer in the bones ..."

[tso-d_chris 0]

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While I agree, that does not mean that "any overloaded canopy is just as dangerous as any other." PD, Tempo and Smart reserves do well at high loadings; Ravens don't. The few jumps I made under a MR 150 revealed a distinct desire to stall hard during moderate flares.

I agree that not all reserves are created equal, despite possible being certified under the same TSO standards. But if a jumper overloads his canopy, that jumper should take the time to, at the very least, jump the canopy as a main a few times so there is at least some sense of familiarity with the canopy so any potential performance problems can be anticipated when it is landed as a reserve.

If a canopy's performance envelope is wider than advertised, great, but that fact should be verified, and not just assumed.

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[beezyshaw 0]

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...that jumper should take the time to, at the very least, jump the canopy as a main a few times

Actually, with a Precision reserve, you are allowed to put ONE jump on the canopy as a main for testing/evaluation purposes.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Actually, with a Precision reserve, you are allowed to put ONE jump on the canopy as a main for testing/evaluation purposes.

There I go again writing without clarity.

What I meant is that they should jump a canopy like their reserve (same make/model), not their actual reserve canopy.

While I am not certain of Precision's demo policy, I am certain that PD will let you demo reserves in much same way they allow main canopy demos, and I'm pretty sure Aerodyne will let customers try out a particular sized reserve as a main before buying one to be used exclusively as a reserve.

While I have demoed canopies from Precision in the past, none of them were reserves. Is this something that Precision offers in their demo program?

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[billvon 3,070]

>If a canopy's performance envelope is wider than advertised, great,
>but that fact should be verified, and not just assumed.

I have verified it. I figured I would post my experiences so that other people (who perhaps cannot demo as many canopies as I get to demo) can make decisions with some more info.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I have verified it. I figured I would post my experiences so that other people (who perhaps cannot demo as many canopies as I get to demo) can make decisions with some more info.

I completely agree that we cannot have too much information about our gear. But don't you think there is a difference between someone knowing that it can be done, and knowing that they can do it?