Need Help With My Daughter's Physical Science Project

[NewGuy2005 53]

My Daughter needs to create a "cloud" model of a vanadium atom. This needs to be a cloud model as opposed to a Bohr or Chadwick type model.

We understand the concept of the cloud model but need help converting this concept into a 3-dimensional object that she can put on a desk in front of her. How do you physically show the varying and multi-shaped orbits of the atom's various components?

All ideas, links, etc, would be greatly appreciated!!!

[DiverMike 5]

Good luck - I think you will need it. What kind of teacher asks for a 3 dimensional model of 3 layers of spherical clouds? If you can somehow find 3 clear spheres of different diameters you could draw 'dots' on the spheres to represent likelihood of electron locations, but that would still be half like a Bohr model since the electron likelihoods aren't really on the same radii.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[NewGuy2005 53]

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Good luck - I think you will need it. What kind of teacher asks for a 3 dimensional model of 3 layers of spherical clouds? If you can somehow find 3 clear spheres of different diameters you could draw 'dots' on the spheres to represent likelihood of electron locations, but that would still be half like a Bohr model since the electron likelihoods aren't really on the same radii.

Exactly!! How would you show the various spheres with all the probable locations of the subatomic particles? Even the shperes aren't realy spheres.

[skymama 37]

Man, do I feel stupid. I have no idea what you're talking about! Good luck though! You're a good daddy to help her out.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[DiverMike 5]

I'm just making it all up. Someone told me chicks dig guys who understand particle physics.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[Glitch 0]

would balloons work?

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[NewGuy2005 53]

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would balloons work?

I think it might, but they would need to nest inside each other and they would need to be clear. Also, each balloon would show only one possible orbit rather than all of the probable orbits.

[jimmytavino 16]

we used to brainstorm alot , when the kids were doing "school projects"...

A 3 d model of an atom??? ok well vanadium is new to me... It's been a while since i really studied a periodic table of the elements.... but i'd bet it has lots of electrons. a round styrofome (sp ) center can be the nucleus. mark it out like a soccer ball, and then use two different colored marking pens to fill in the spaces as needed, for protons, and neutrons..keep the numbers correct .
For the electron rings, lightweight but rigid aluminum wires can be shaped into the orbits, as needed, slide small styrofome balls onto the wire before you loop the ends together, and build each of the valence rings,,,, i think they're called..

Now the only trick will be to support the rings, around the nucleus... Tougher if there are lots of rings.. but simply poke a couple of straight pieces of wire, clean through the center and use them to carry the orbit rings...

maybe a 4 or 6 inch diameter center... use extra lengths of wire and cut off the excess, when done. work from the center , out, keep things to scale...

prop the whole thing up on a dowel, attached to a 12" x 12" base,,, plywood, painted,, or a bigger base, on which you can add some text, and descriptive info. about the project.

use the sort of wires which are used for suspended ceiling grids... stiiff.. but still workable...

have fun.
jt
ps....i probably just described either a "Bohr or Chadwick model!!! since i am Old school... and not certain of just WHAT a 'cloud model' should look like,, but if the styrofome, wire technique Can be used, then goood.

[DiverMike 5]

You would need 5 balloons to represent the nucleus and 4 orbits, or skip representing the nucleus and use 4 balloons. You would have to inflate the innermost balloon first and that would take strong lungs.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[JackC 0]

I think you'll need a supercomputer, a PhD in quantum physics and about 2 years to do it right. But based on the difficulty and pointlessness of the project for a schoolkid, I'd say your kid's teacher doesn't understand quantum physics anyway so you'd probably get away with a few Skittles stuck together for a nucleus wrapped in a shit load of cottoncandy. It won't be realistic but at least you'd be able to eat it afterwards.

Figure 5.10 Comparison of 3d (gray) and 4s (color) electron clouds for a vanadium atom (computer-generated). (Copyright © 1975 by W. G. and J. W. Moore.)

[NewGuy2005 53]

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...based on the difficulty and pointlessness of the project for a schoolkid, I'd say your kid's teacher doesn't understand quantum physics anyway...

The teacher claims that my daughter has seen several examples of this kind of model. I'm kind of doubting that.

For the record, I do not understand quantum physics, not even a little.

[kallend 2,106]

Computer graphics. Do you have access to Mathematica or Maple?

No-one to my knowledge has made a real-space model showing what you want, which is, presumably, all the 1s, 2s, 2p, 3s, 3p, 4s and 3d electrons all in the correct places.

Just the 3d orbital is very complicated, all by itself.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shropshire 0]

What you need is a few thousand miles of copper wire, some super conductors and big magnets..... oh and a 30 mile circular trench in your garden ... should be doable by the weekend

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[NewGuy2005 53]

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Computer graphics. Do you have access to Mathematica or Maple?

No-one to my knowledge has made a real-space model showing what you want, which is, presumably, all the 1s, 2s, 2p, 3s, 3p, 4s and 3d electrons all in the correct places.

Just the 3d orbital is very complicated, all by itself.

Afraid not. We do, on the other hand, have accesss to everything at the local Hobby Lobby and Home Depot.

I'm beginning to think the teacher does not know what she is asking for. She claims my daughter has seen several examples from last year. From what my daughter described, they sound like Bohr models.

I may ask her if I can drop by after school and have a look at a few.

[JohnMitchell 16]

A large spherical fishbowl, a dozen packs of lime jello, a box of raisins and one golf ball. Good luck.

I've found that a lot of those science projects can be done to a far lower standard than stated in the beginning. Just turning something that's anything will usually satisfy the teacher.

[NewGuy2005 53]

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Computer graphics. Do you have access to Mathematica or Maple?

No-one to my knowledge has made a real-space model showing what you want, which is, presumably, all the 1s, 2s, 2p, 3s, 3p, 4s and 3d electrons all in the correct places.

Just the 3d orbital is very complicated, all by itself.

Have a look at this:

http://www.hydrogenlab.de/elektronium/HTML/einleitung_hauptseite_uk.html

This is the best representation I've seen so far.

[quade 4]

Just out of curiosity, what school grade is this?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skiskyrock 0]

First off, this is an art project, not a science project.

three possibilities suggest themselves:

1) purchase a styrofoam ball, label it nucleus, explain that at this scale, the 1S shell is somwhere around Saturn

2) turn in an empty box, explain that you built it HO scale

3) turn in the styrofoam ball, explain that it is the 1S orbital vanadium in it's +21 oxidation state

[muff528 3]

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First off, this is an art project, not a science project.

three possibilities suggest themselves:

1) purchase a styrofoam ball, label it nucleus, explain that at this scale, the 1S shell is somwhere around Saturn

2) turn in an empty box, explain that you built it HO scale

3) turn in the styrofoam ball, explain that it is the 1S orbital vanadium in it's +21 oxidation state

I like #1 except the nucleus needs to be a probability cloud too. #2 is good too but you could say you scaled it UP 1000000 times. It's in there ---honest! Now it's up to teacher to prove a 1M x oversized model of a single vanadium atom is NOT in the box! But, true to the whole concept of the project: maybe it is, maybe it isn't is! Just ask the cat.

[NewGuy2005 53]

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Just out of curiosity, what school grade is this?

9th

They're growing them smart these days. A lot more so than when I was in 9th grade.

[NewGuy2005 53]

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First off, this is an art project, not a science project.

three possibilities suggest themselves:

1) purchase a styrofoam ball, label it nucleus, explain that at this scale, the 1S shell is somwhere around Saturn

2) turn in an empty box, explain that you built it HO scale

3) turn in the styrofoam ball, explain that it is the 1S orbital vanadium in it's +21 oxidation state

I like #1 except the nucleus needs to be a probability cloud too. #2 is good too but you could say you scaled it UP 1000000 times. It's in there ---honest! Now it's up to teacher to prove a 1M x oversized model of a single vanadium atom is NOT in the box! But, true to the whole concept of the project: maybe it is, maybe it isn't is! Just ask the cat.

I like 1 best, but like a previous poster said, make it out of candy so you can eat it.

[billvon 3,070]

> This needs to be a cloud model as opposed to a Bohr or Chadwick type model.

Use balloons. They'll approximate a probability contour. And you can use three colors to represent the S, P, D orbitals. Won't be 100% accurate, but this is ninth grade.

[councilman24 37]

Your going to have to figure out what the teacher thinks your daughter has seen and match it for V. She obviously has something in mind.

Balloon animal sounds best to me.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[quade 4]

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They're growing them smart these days. A lot more so than when I was in 9th grade.

I have a suspicion it's not common everywhere. Maybe I'm wrong.

How can they possibly teach to this level in a 9th grade physical science class yet so many other topics seem to fall completely by the wayside?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JackC 0]

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How can they possibly teach to this level in a 9th grade physical science class yet so many other topics seem to fall completely by the wayside?

What level are they teaching to? It's not like the kids are going to learn anything about quantum physics by doing it. I think it's probably quite easy work for teachers since they can turn a difficult science subject into an easy art subject. That way they can teach science without actually doing any science. I can't say I'm impressed.