Sabre 2 openings and strategies for dealing with them

[darrenspooner 0]

I have posted a few times on this. I have a Sabre 2 150. I had terrible openings from new. Twisting and turning all over the sky. Then it wound up and I had a high speed spinning mal. It went back to PD and the canopy was fine. Test jumping good, trim, canopy, everything okay. So I have persevered with it and found a way of minimising this twitchy opening. Essentially, I reach up and grab the risers during the snivel and pull them apart to slow the slider down. So far it seems to be working. But am I doing anything dangerous? I there something else I should be doing instead? I go dead man in the harness, focus on symetry and position on opening, try to fly the harness. But slowing the slider down seems to sort it out. Should I be doing this? I don't have enough experience to know.

[Elisha 1]

I have a Sabre 2 150 as well, loaded just a hair over 1 and I've only gotten on heading openings with no line twists. I've only gotten a couple really soft snively openings, but no slammers or rather hard ones. What about a bigger slider?

I think are past threads that with this for 1st gen Sabres, but the same hints might be good too.

Hopefully someone with some real knowledge can reply.

[Ncrowe 0]

I find that If I keep my shoulders square and feet together I tend to get a lot better openings ....I still get a 90 or a dive here and there but nothing too violent.

"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "

[NeedToJump 0]

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It went back to PD and the canopy was fine. Test jumping good, trim, canopy, everything okay.

PD does a fantastic job of testing canopies that are sent in. If they sent it back and say that everything is fine, then I'd start looking at the other factors that could cause terrible openings. Ask someone to watch you pack it and ask someone to video your opening. You may feel like you are very symetrical in the harness, but it's worth getting some video just to be sure.

The Sabre2 is a fantastic canopy the usually opens very well. I have never had a bad opening on a Sabre2 (althouth I only have about 50-60 Sabre2 jumps.)

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Body position
Body Position
Body Position


Sabre 2's are unforgiving when it comes to bad body position on opening... that's my 2 cents.

How I deal with it. DO NOT watch the bag lift off your back! Wave, toss, eyes on the horizon, Arch! -- put your d*ck in the dirt (or push the bush... which ever applies) and make sure you're level as the bag leaves, line stretch, etc... when the canopy starts to sit you up... I get ahold of the risers and spread them... as noted above. I don't try to do that "fly the opening by shifting in the harness sh*t", doesn't work for me, if it works for you, good on you, doesn't work for me. When the canopy is pretty much open, I will fly the rear risers if need be to get pointed away from other jumpers and/or stop a "turn" as need be before collapsing my slider and unstowing my breaks... etc.

Good luck.

[Elisha 1]

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-- put your d*ck in the dirt (or push the bush... which ever applies)...

[shall555 0]

This is good information, ZigZag.

My question is: why is this canopy seemingly so picky ?

I can understand one of these tiny, elliptical, cross-braced jets being touchy, but a Sabre 2 ?

They're billed as being good intermediate canopies and I've read that they're used on student rigs, some places.

I just wonder about the questions I raised here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1755579;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

As someone who just shelled out some serious bux for a new one of these, I am a bit concerned with all this. I had based my purchase on the glowing reviews in the gear review section here at dz.com.

Ah well!

shall

[pilotdave 0]

I have off heading openings every time on my sabre2. Got about 325 jumps on it or so. I might get an on-heading opening every 90 jumps, if that. It's totally possible my problem is body position, but I have trouble believing that I don't get it right by mistake more often.

It snivels on heading...then just as I'm thinking "ahhh, on heading," it pulls to one side. Anywhere from ~90 degrees to ~360. Rear risers are totally ineffective during that time... I've felt it going right, yanked on the left, and it just keeps going right until it feels like stopping.

Openings are always soft... the off heading doesn't bother me much, except when there's a lot of canopy traffic (that's when it guarantee's a turn toward the nearest canopy
So it might just be me, but I think there's more to sabre2 off heading openings than just body position.

Dave

[arlo 0]

a couple things to make sure of when you pack:

1) make absolutely sure that your slider grommets are against your slider stops. check, double check, triple and quadruple check this. when you lay the cocooned canopy down as your holding the base, keep tension on those lines and keep it against the slider grommets. people sometimes get sloppy with this. not good.

2) make sure your slider is QUARTERED. so many times people don't quarter their slider and only leave it pulled front to front or side to side. big no-no. quarter it. the slider slows down the opening. that's it's job. if it's quartered, its inflation is more uniform because there's max surface area.

3) don't shove the nose in when you propack.

4) if you're gonna roll the nose, split it and roll each side towards the center cell, but do NOT stuff it into the center cell. another big no-no. i'm not saying to roll the nose, but if you're gonna roll the nose, then don't stuff it inside the center cell.

try this stuff out. this is stuff that you should already be doing with any propack. nothing shiny here. but these are the things i can think of that, if done incorrectly, can cause thine ass to be spanked...and not in a fun way.

btw, this is my opinion, and mine only. i represent myself with these suggestions.

• Quote

[rushmc 23]

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a couple things to make sure of when you pack:

1) make absolutely sure that your slider grommets are against your slider stops. check, double check, triple and quadruple check this. when you lay the cocooned canopy down as your holding the base, keep tension on those lines and keep it against the slider grommets. people sometimes get sloppy with this. not good.

2) make sure your slider is QUARTERED. so many times people don't quarter their slider and only leave it pulled front to front or side to side. big no-no. quarter it. the slider slows down the opening. that's it's job. if it's quartered, its inflation is more uniform because there's max surface area.

3) don't shove the nose in when you propack.

4) if you're gonna roll the nose, split it and roll each side towards the center cell, but do NOT stuff it into the center cell. another big no-no. i'm not saying to roll the nose, but if you're gonna roll the nose, then don't stuff it inside the center cell.

try this stuff out. this is stuff that you should already be doing with any propack. nothing shiny here. but these are the things i can think of that, if done incorrectly, can cause thine ass to be spanked...and not in a fun way.

btw, this is my opinion, and mine only. i represent myself with these suggestions.

Can you explain your reasoning for #3 & 4? What do you gain or elimiate by not pushing the nose back? I have a 230 Sabre 2. I have tamed the opening (for the most part) They are never really hard. I do get the snivel....snivel .....snivel pop and I have only one slammer and I know that one was my fault. I also get 2000 ft snivels doing hop n pops to watch the CREW troops (at 13,500 ft)

But you tweeked my interest in your post. I look forward to your reply.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[moonglo 0]

#3-That was my fix for old sabres that were hurting people- don't shove the nose. It eliminates the snivel....snivel...POP! that was hurting them by making the canopy inflate to push down the slider. When the nose was pushed too far in the snivel went on so long that the slider fell down in the skydiver's burble leaving the canopy to open (POP!) on it's own. Quarter the slider and make it do it's job!! With the nose out it opens briskly, but the slider does it's job and no one gets hurt.

[arlo 0]

#3. if the nose is pushed back into the canopy, the opportunity to disturb the lines exists.

try this:

next time you propack, and the nose is tucked between your knees and you're looking down at the lines, flake all the material out and dress it as you normally would. then, as you're watching the lines, grab the nose and push it as you normally do, into the center of the canopy. watch what it does to the lines.
that's my reasoning for #3.

#4. some people roll the nose all in one direction, some shove the rolled cells into the center cell. if you think about it, you want the canopy to inflate from the center cell outward, as uniformly as possible. any asymmetry will cause the canopy to open asymmetrically and that in and of itself, will create an opening turn. this is because one side of the canopy is trying to fly before the other. granted, this is super fast so all you notice is an off-heading opening, but you get the picture.

now that i'm completely off topic, the canopy really isn't designed to have hunks of rolled fabric being jerked out of its center cell on a regular basis. it's nylon and heat from friction burns. the only thing you'd gain is the time it takes for the fabric to extract itself from the center cell. the rolled remainder of the cells will still open the same(-ish). the determining factor of the speed is the slider (as the previous poster said 'let the slider do its job'). i like that. :) anyway, to make a short story long, i think that you just open yourself up to canopy damage by doing the shoving thing and there's really no gain.

hope this helps explain my abbreviated ideas. :)

blues,
arlo

p.s. keep in mind that there is no absolute with the nature of a canopy opening. we can design it to be as consistent as you can possibly get under similar conditions, but that doesn't mean that 100% of the time, if all's the same, you will always get the same response. throw chaos in the mix and all bets are off. :) what's that saying? even if everything goes right, the canopy can still smack that ass? just kidding. but you know what i mean.

[rushmc 23]

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#3-That was my fix for old sabres that were hurting people- don't shove the nose. It eliminates the snivel....snivel...POP! that was hurting them by making the canopy inflate to push down the slider. When the nose was pushed too far in the snivel went on so long that the slider fell down in the skydiver's burble leaving the canopy to open (POP!) on it's own. Quarter the slider and make it do it's job!! With the nose out it opens briskly, but the slider does it's job and no one gets hurt.

Makes sense

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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#3. if the nose is pushed back into the canopy, the opportunity to disturb the lines exists.

try this:

next time you propack, and the nose is tucked between your knees and you're looking down at the lines, flake all the material out and dress it as you normally would. then, as you're watching the lines, grab the nose and push it as you normally do, into the center of the canopy. watch what it does to the lines.
that's my reasoning for #3.

#4. some people roll the nose all in one direction, some shove the rolled cells into the center cell. if you think about it, you want the canopy to inflate from the center cell outward, as uniformly as possible. any asymmetry will cause the canopy to open asymmetrically and that in and of itself, will create an opening turn. this is because one side of the canopy is trying to fly before the other. granted, this is super fast so all you notice is an off-heading opening, but you get the picture.

now that i'm completely off topic, the canopy really isn't designed to have hunks of rolled fabric being jerked out of its center cell on a regular basis. it's nylon and heat from friction burns. the only thing you'd gain is the time it takes for the fabric to extract itself from the center cell. the rolled remainder of the cells will still open the same(-ish). the determining factor of the speed is the slider (as the previous poster said 'let the slider do its job'). i like that. :) anyway, to make a short story long, i think that you just open yourself up to canopy damage by doing the shoving thing and there's really no gain.

hope this helps explain my abbreviated ideas. :)

blues,
arlo

p.s. keep in mind that there is no absolute with the nature of a canopy opening. we can design it to be as consistent as you can possibly get under similar conditions, but that doesn't mean that 100% of the time, if all's the same, you will always get the same response. throw chaos in the mix and all bets are off. :) what's that saying? even if everything goes right, the canopy can still smack that ass? just kidding. but you know what i mean.

Thanks for the info. While I do not roll the nose one way. (I roll 4 and 4 leaving the center open) the material ideas make sense to me too
My day is complete as I have learned something I care about. Thank You!!!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[arlo 0]

you're super welcome!
just remember that this is only my personal opinion and you know what they say about those.


big blues (and soft openings),
arlo

[rushmc 23]

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you're super welcome!
just remember that this is only my personal opinion and you know what they say about those.


big blues (and soft openings),
arlo

Point taken!

I am am rigger so I know what I am getting into with this. Sometimes you (in this case me) just take earlier training (such as how to pack a main) and you don't question it. Well, your post (and others posts) added more information for me to consider. (I love Dropzone) I can now take that and question what and how I do it, add the new information, (thanks again) and make an informed decision.

I will let you know what I find this week end!

I did soften my opening this spring when I replaced my spectra lines with dacron. The slider now always stops half way down and then finishes coming down once everything has slowed down (I do not do anything to get it to finish coming down) The stretch in the lines has helped too.

Thanks again

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[pilotdave 0]

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I also get 2000 ft snivels doing hop n pops

2000 foot snivels from hop n' pops? How long does that take, 30 seconds?? Mine inflates slowly during hop n' pops, but it probably only takes a few hundred feet...

Dave

[hookncrater 0]

Personally, the method I used to combat poor opening Sabre 2s is to quit jumping them.

Sabre 2 = most overrated canopy, period.

It flies and flares great, but every opening is a crap shoot.

________________________________________________________________________________
when in doubt... hook it!

[PrairieDoug 0]

I've been getting soft, on-heading openings since I started to psycho pack my S2 170 (1.1:1). This is only for the past 50 jumps, which I recognize is a limited data set. But I'll keep doing it as long as it keeps giving me results that I like.

Doug

[rushmc 23]

It talkes looooong time! I mean, I am watching it and it feels like forever. The CREW Dogs made comments about watching me fall on by them. We jumped at 13,500 and I was under canopy at 11,500. I started wondering if I was going to ride the thing down to about 4 or 5 thousand and then chop it. But it opened .............finally. It was kind of fun though

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billbooth 10]

You are a smart person. The best way to avoid injuries from that occasional super hard opening (as well as the hard openings themselves), is not to jump no-stretch lines. Ask yourself, "Do I really need the (slight) advantages no-stretch lines offer?" If not, get Dacron. Your body will thank you, because even if you are not ever seriously injured on any single jump, each even slightly hard opening on no-stretch lines is damaging your body...and it all adds up.

[shall555 0]

Well, at least that's one thing I did right with my Sabre 2 order.

Ordered it with dacron lines !

You'll know me.. I'll be the one springing up and down like a yo-yo during opening ... but smiling.

shall

[rushmc 23]

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You are a smart person. The best way to avoid injuries from that occasional super hard opening (as well as the hard openings themselves), is not to jump no-stretch lines. Ask yourself, "Do I really need the (slight) advantages no-stretch lines offer?" If not, get Dacron. Your body will thank you, because even if you are not ever seriously injured on any single jump, each even slightly hard opening on no-stretch lines is damaging your body...and it all adds up.

Thanks Bill

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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Well, at least that's one thing I did right with my Sabre 2 order.

Ordered it with dacron lines !

You'll know me.. I'll be the one springing up and down like a yo-yo during opening ... but smiling.

shall

I bought my Sabre II used, with Dacron on it....when it's due to be re-lined, it'll have Dacron put back on it....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[bigway 4]

I too and everyone else who has jumped my sabre 2 have an off heading opening evertime and i am sick of my dealer and other people saying it is body position. It is the canopy, most people i have ever met with a sbre 2 complain about the opening. However i love the canopy and it has a great flare. I always get a 180 opening and quite fast but it is a slow soft opening. I find when you dont push the nose in during pro pack that the turn is not 180 -360 but only about 45.

I do love my canopy but am worried about jumping it in lots of traffic so therefore am about to buy an Icarus.

People use to moan about hard openings with the original sabre and now with sabre 2 everyone moans about the off heading openings. It is very apparent that this is a flaw in the canopy and not body position. Everyone seems to say body position is the problem, then when they jump it of course it is not.

I love my sabre 2 but hate the openings.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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