NWFlyer 2 #26 March 25, 2010 Quote Damn it, i need more coffee. Apologies to that person. I still stand by my map though You'll probably like this one too, then."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flyfast 0 #27 March 25, 2010 I see the only time you post on here is to flame Americans, if it's such a problem for you then stay the fuck off DZ.comZC OG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #28 March 25, 2010 Quote I see the only time you post on here is to flame Americans, if it's such a problem for you then stay the fuck off DZ.com isn't DZ.com a South African product ? edit to add : please keep the thread out of Speaker's corner material, and keep Andy in the US, we didn't send him there for no reason. USA is Europe's Guantanamo scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #29 March 25, 2010 QuoteHow many jumps do you guys think is an acceptable number to start jumping with a camera? I'm not thinking about doing it any time soon, its not like i have the money to buy one anyway, I'm just wondering. The sticky in the Photog forum has both the minimum recommendations and the reasons why. Very good info. There's also THIS THREAD that talks about why the GoPro isn't any different than a bigger camera setup. If you are interested in becoming a camera flier in the future, the best thing (IMO) to do is find one at your DZ who is willing to mentor you. Like the rest of skydiving, most folks are willing to share their knowledge and help the ones who want to learn and are willing to listen. There will be a few who might be afraid to teach a potential competitor, but many of those have such poor skills that they aren't worth learning from in the first place."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #30 March 25, 2010 QuoteThe sticky in the Photog forum has both the minimum recommendations and the reasons why. Very good info. There's also THIS THREAD that talks about why the GoPro isn't any different than a bigger camera setup. This case has nothing to do with camera. Leave him alone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #31 March 25, 2010 QuoteThis isnt the USPA, you people that quote your SIM need to pull your heads out your arse's. Its not only Americans who use this website The SIM is a great reference for skydivers around the world. There's nothing in the camera flying section of the SIM that doesn't apply to skydivers around the world. USPA has no rules for camera flying... they're all recommendations. Recommendations apply to everyone, everywhere. And even if they were rules, it's still a great resource. If somebody in Norway thinks there's nothing wrong with jumping a camera at 100 jumps because it's allowed in his country, he might possibly be surprised to read reasons why it's a bad idea. If Australia had a 1000 jump rule for cameras, it'd be a great idea to quote that too. Norway has much more stringent rules regarding camera flying than the US does. Hope that changes. Trying to get my DZ to require 200 jumps. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #32 March 25, 2010 QuoteThe SIM is a great reference for skydivers around the world. There's nothing in the camera flying section of the SIM that doesn't apply to skydivers around the world. USPA has no rules for camera flying... they're all recommendations. Recommendations apply to everyone, everywhere. That's exactly what I was going to say. Well, not exactly, you were much nicer than I was going to be, but you hit the nail on the head with that one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #33 March 25, 2010 QuoteQuoteThe sticky in the Photog forum has both the minimum recommendations and the reasons why. Very good info. There's also THIS THREAD that talks about why the GoPro isn't any different than a bigger camera setup. This case has nothing to do with camera. Leave him alone. I agree the landing pattern issue has nothing to do with the camera issue. I was not picking on the OP in any way. I was simply answering the post I quoted."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teigen 0 #34 March 25, 2010 Screw those maps, here's the REAL difference between the USA and Europe! Clicky! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sangi 0 #35 March 25, 2010 Quote The SIM is a great reference for skydivers around the world. There's nothing in the camera flying section of the SIM that doesn't apply to skydivers around the world. USPA has no rules for camera flying... they're all recommendations. Recommendations apply to everyone, everywhere. This is just typical, trying to force your way on others... Don't expect the world to work by your rules and your rules only."Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,067 #36 March 25, 2010 A few suggestions: 1) This kind of thing happens with depressing regularity, and seeing these people early can help prepare you for potential evasive action you have to take. Getting familiar with standard patterns, and seeing if any jumpers are outside them, can help alert you to a potential conflict. 2) Turning away from the jumper was an option. Do not do this unless you can flat turn - but if you can, a turn away (right turn is the default standard) can help avoid a potential collision. 3) Reducing the things you have to pay attention to (i.e. a camera) may increase the available attention you have for other things, like noticing other skydivers flying the wrong pattern. The "but I just turn it on and forget it" thing has been proven wrong over and over again; we DO pay attention to cameras, and close calls like this can result from that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #37 March 25, 2010 Quote This is just typical, trying to force your way on others... Did you even read the passage that you quoted in your post, or do you simply spout anti-American crap on demand ? The guy said that the USPA SIM contains recommendations that anyone can use. Even in the UK, the words rules and recommendations have different meanings._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #38 March 25, 2010 Quote This case has nothing to do with camera. Leave him alone. I respectfully disagree! This has everything to do with the camera!!!! If the OP had not made the hard turns early, looked around to see where traffic was, there may have been no incident. My wild guess is, the OP did the hard turn for the "cool camera effect". Just a guess on my part, granted, but look closely at the video. On behalf of the OP, that guy had no business hooking in front of him. OP... Thanks for posting this. Would you be willing to share the rest of the video, the parts that were edited out? ThanksBirdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beachbum 0 #39 March 25, 2010 Quote1. Looks to me like you were doing a pretty good job of checking your air-space. Plus I think some are forgetting that you can scan nearly everything in front of you with just your eyes (not saying that you shouldn't have your head on a swivel). I saw this last night and figured someone with a lot more jumps would say something about it, and I'd let that happen since their opinions DO carry a bit more weight. Well, that didn't happen, so I will put in my 2 cents worth. I have to disagree with "pretty good job of checking your air-space". What happened to checking above, below, to the sides, behind, and all the angles in between?? Yes, looking in front of you is a good start, but not enough. Short of my mom with the eyes in the back of her head when I was a kid, I don't know anyone who can cover all that without moving their head ... ;) ...As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #40 March 25, 2010 QuoteIf the OP had not made the hard turns early I'm not sure if I'm seeing where the OP made hard turns. I find it interesting that people are saying that the OP doesn't have enough experience to jump camera but then expect him to get his pattern perfect. Maybe that's not what people are actually thinking but there are way too many people playing "devil's advocate" in this thread. If I was on final and someone did that to me (assuming that I hadn't noticed them) I'd chew them the fuck out. That's bullshit. I can only guess that the person doing the hook in this scenario has more jumps, they were also above the OP and flying contrary to the pattern. We can certainly learn to avoid these scenarios by paying more attention to the canopies in the air around you, taking small evasive action early (rather than large action later) and more wisely choosing a landing area that will allow more outs but I think it's pretty off base to be pointing the finger as much at the OP for this incident, camera or no. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #41 March 25, 2010 Quote If the OP had not made the hard turns early I'm not sure if I'm seeing where the OP made hard turns. Just after opening, the OP does some hard turns which eats up some altitude early. Had he not done this (Although, it's his right to make hard turns in clear space if he wants) he would have stayed above all the higher performance canopies. Thus, not putting him in this position. Quote I can only guess that the person doing the hook in this scenario has more jumps, they were also above the OP and flying contrary to the pattern. No argument here! That was clearly bullshit. Quote I think it's pretty off base to be pointing the finger as much at the OP for this incident, camera or no. It was not my intention to point fingers at the OP. Being this is the S&T forum, my intention was to discuss ways for the OP to steer clear of these situations in the first place. Let's face it, we see this scenario play out all the time. As for the camera, anyone who truly thinks it was not a contributing factor is wrong. OP... You are not in the wrong here. But, there are things we can do to avoid these situations in the future. Again, thanks for posting and I'd really like to see the unedited version. Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #42 March 25, 2010 Quote having 200 jumps does not make having a camera on your helmet any safer than with 100 jumps You haven't made 200 jumps so it's beyond me how you could know that. QuoteBy 100 jumps most intelligent/aware jumpers can grasp the risks involved with wearing a camera. I know a lot of reasonably intelligent whuffos who can grasp the risks involved with wearing a camera. Does that mean it's okay for them to wear a camera on their first jump? The 200 jump recommendation isn't based on cognitive ability. It's based on the observation of a great many highly experienced jumpers who have agreed that the average skydiver has gained a level of situational awareness appropriate to adding more tasks to a skydive at around 200 jumps. There will always be exceptions and above / below average skydivers. I noticed a huge change in my own situational awareness at around that many jumps. YMMV.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teigen 0 #43 March 25, 2010 As requested.. From breakoff till landing! Clicky And again! I appreciate the constructive feedback. And yea, i think its a great thing if people post stuff like this. Regardless of it being them or someone else making a bad move. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #44 March 26, 2010 QuoteIt was not my intention to point fingers at the OP. Being this is the S&T forum, my intention was to discuss ways for the OP to steer clear of these situations in the first place. Let's face it, we see this scenario play out all the time. My apologies, I wasn't directing my comments at you except the first question. I watched the most recent version of the video and I see the hard turns; Certainly not a great idea. I agree with the 200 jump min for camera (I'm a hypocrite as I started jumping a go pro at about 160 jumps) but I'm just not sure that the result would have been different in this scenario. I think there are plenty of instances with exactly this behavior sans the camera. So yes, the camera could have contributed to the position the OP found himself in but the OP could have just as easily behaved exactly the same way without the evidentiary footage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #45 March 26, 2010 QuoteAs requested.. From breakoff till landing! Clicky And again! I appreciate the constructive feedback. And yea, i think its a great thing if people post stuff like this. Regardless of it being them or someone else making a bad move. You seem to be doing plenty of looking around and scanning your air-space in my humble low-jump-# opinion. Seems ridiculous that you are taking any flack for the "hard turns". I don't see anything more than full 360 degree turns with 'full' toggle. Given someone has clear air-space and safe altitude, even students do this. I doubt you gave a shit about getting a "hard turn" on video. In response camera use... I am simply saying that it is possible for someone with 100 jumps to be as safe with a camera as someone with 200+ jumps, of course there are always exceptions. As for me, I have jumped with a GoPro no more than 4-5 times. I am no longer jumping with a camera until I meet my home dz's recommendations. I also plan on further discussing the risks involved before jumping with a camera again. Just like most people here I want to have fun but safety for others and myself always takes precedence. ETA: All that being said, I would not argue against the USPA recommended 200 jumps for camera use, it's a reasonable number.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevo 0 #46 March 30, 2010 i think more emphasis needs to be placed on creating more separation on entering the pattern. even on a full otter load of 23 people we can easily create 7-10 minutes from when the first person lands to the last, that should be more than enough time for everyone to have their own crack at the landing area, with a minimum of 10-15 seconds of separation on landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #47 March 30, 2010 Quote As for me, I have jumped with a GoPro no more than 4-5 times. ...at less than 100 jumps QuoteI am no longer jumping with a camera until I meet my home dz's recommendations. So, either: a) you jumped the camera without even asking what the recommendations were, or b) you knew what the recommendations were and intentionally disregarded them and jumped the camera anyway. Which was it? QuoteI also plan on further discussing the risks involved before jumping with a camera again. Why do I have the sneaky feeling that it's only because the DZ put the foot to you? QuoteJust like most people here I want to have fun but safety for others and myself always takes precedence. Then get a SIM and READ it.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #48 March 30, 2010 Why do I have the feeling that all those posts that got deleted were responses to your original post (post# 14)? Am I wrong?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #49 March 30, 2010 Quote I doubt you gave a shit about getting a "hard turn" on video..well you apparently never went to that DZ, and never recieved their safety briefing. IIRC it stipulates "NO SPIRALING".scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #50 March 30, 2010 QuoteSo, either: a) you jumped the camera without even asking what the recommendations were, or b) you knew what the recommendations were and intentionally disregarded them and jumped the camera anyway. Which was it? Niether, someone had told me that our dz recommended 50 jumps for a GoPro, and I later found out that it is 100. No one said anything to me the few times I wore the camera. QuoteQuoteI also plan on further discussing the risks involved before jumping with a camera again. Why do I have the sneaky feeling that it's only because the DZ put the foot to you? No one did, but I would follow the rules without contention. As for any posts that got deleted if they were in reponse to my post #14 I didn't see them, so not sure.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
