Sketchy final

[Teigen 0]

Met this guy on my final in Empuriabrava.. In hindsight i probably chose the most busy part of that particlar LZ (it was one of my first jumps there) but i don't see any reason for anyone to fly in the opposite direction of everyone else.

Is this a noteworthy thing or is it a common thing at large dropzones? By the looks of it he had two options, do the turn and land, or land downwind.

Clicky

[piisfish 140]

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i don't see any reason for anyone to fly in the opposite direction of everyone else.

Is this a noteworthy thing or is it a common thing at large dropzones?

Clicky

I dont understand why he does a right hand 180 when he should be doing a left hand pattern. Did he get a talk by ground security after crossing the runway ? Did you talk to him ?

Remember that EB is a very international DZ with lots of visitors who like to do it their way... Most people adapt to local rules or etiquette. Usually 180degree toggle monkeys know better than others and continue to do their shit.

I know I would have talked to that person, and would not have been happy with him, and would have asked to not share the air at the same time anymore (unless corrective action is taken)

edited to add : the situation might also have been accidental, and not competely intentional. Everyone can screw up a setup.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[andreeb77 0]

It is noteworthy and as far as my experience goes it is not something usually happening at larger DZ.

On the other hand, it (most probably) wasn't the last time you've met this kind of wanna-be-toggle-swooper.

I once "met" a guy 100 feet in front of me coming in at a 90 degree angle in relation to me. All that happening in an altitude of roughly 150 feet. Not very nice either.

We had a very entertaining conversation about landing directions, wind direction, pre-jump briefing etc.

[virgin-burner 1]

why are you jumping a camera at 100 jumps!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[kkeenan 14]

Yes, that guy seems to be causing a hazard with his approach, but it appears that you did nothing in the way of evasive action. In this situation, you could have made a slight turn to increase the separation distance. You also could have applied some brakes or rear risers to slow your descent and forward speed. This would have placed you higher above the oncoming canopy.

100 jumps is well below the accepted norm for camera jumping. At what experience level did you start wearing the camera ?

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[Scrumpot 1]

Okay - Little devil's advocacy here, but...

1. Is your profile correct? 100 jumps and jumping camera? No disrespect, but seriously - do you think that could be distracting your "focus" maybe just a little bit too?

The video is obviously "clipped", but I don't see in it anywhere, any head movement / airspace clearing whatsoever, outside of the scope of just strictly between your risers! - Even during YOUR toggle-spiraling, right down over the center, post - opening. You open, collapse your slider, and immediately begin a left toggle-spiral, with NO LOOK & no scan beyond maybe 20-30' in front of you.

2. For how long did you see this guy coming? Did he just "come out of nowhere" right at you, as the video seems to suggest?

Again - picking up other canopies in the air and knowing where they are well ahead of any near meeting is an important component to avoiding a potential "near meeting" in the 1st place. Remember, it takes 2 to collide - but sometimes only 1 to miss - regardless of who is "in the wrong". Ever heard the phrase "you can be 100% in the right, yet still 100% dead"? So, which is more right: Being "right" and not yeilding at a critical moment, then winding up a double-fatality (but going in knowing your were "right") - or yeilding at that critical moment to avoid because you SAW it coming (if you did see it any earlier than this) even though at that moment you do not think that it is you who is "wrong" - then dealing with it SAFELY later, once all your gear is gathered back up and you are OFF the busy landing area?

Just some further THOUGHTS is all.

1st time jumping at a clearly BUSY DZ, and new crowded/congested LZ - for sure too, my very 1st priority is HEAD ON A FRICKEN SWIVEL. Maybe it is for you more than is shown in just this edited clip? But at least at 2 fairly critical times you've shown yourself in even just this clip - IT IS NOT. Remember again - for a collision to take place (or even a near meeting), in any case - It takes two.

So, what did the other canopy pilot have to say about all this after you had a chance to speak with him? You did speak with him (or others right there on site who witnessed with you) right? So then, what is here with this - the rest of the perspective?

Let's ALL learn as much as we can about this, and consider ALL angles. Hopefully, I've just given you a few more "angles" to CONSIDER here now too with this, is all.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[jdfreefly 1]

Thanks for posting this. Videos like this are a valuable resource for skydiving and we need to see more of this stuff posted and shared.

That guy definitely was in the wrong and this very easily could have killed you and him. That said, when things like this happen to me I always like to look at things from the angle of what could I have done to prevent the situation from getting that close?

How many people/groups were in the plane you jumped from? Even if it's an otter with a 5 four ways, you should be able to account for all the groups that are in the air with you. Figure out where they are early and start planning your spot in the pattern relative to them. I saw in your video a good bit of spiraling. Spirals are fun, but unless people are doing them with an eye on the other groups in the air, they tend to compress the pattern. Skydivers landing one after another is good, skydivers all on final at the same time is bad. Start building space in the pattern immediately after opening don't wait until 500 feet to find it, because by then your options are pretty limited.

Once the chance of the collision became clear you had a few options. Good on you not burying a toggle on an avoidance turn and potentially making a bad situation worse. I saw you apply a little bit of breaks when you saw him which was also a good thing, it's usually a good idea if you can slow things down and buy yourself some time. The other thing you could have considered was making a slight correction in your heading, this can be done with a breaked turn or what I like to call the look and lean...aka look and lean in the direction you want to go. If you make that slight correction, once you're sure you've avoided the immediate threat realize that you may know be drifting into someone else's line of flight. Look over your left your shoulder for anyone you may be crowding and look to land to the left along that line of trees that was about 30% off the set pattern.

You had the right of way here, and the other guy was definitely in the wrong, but that will be of little consolation to you if he takes you out and kills you. Remember, in every canopy collision there were at least two people who could have avoided it.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[riggerrob 643]

That toggle-monkey was also silly enough to fly over the runway below 500 feet, a practice frowned upon at most airports. Flying low (e.g. below 500 feet) over a runway - that you are not planning to land on - is so stupid that it is illegal in most countries (see Canadian Air Regulations and American Federal Air Regulations, etc.).

The other thing I disagree with is toogle-hookers and straight-in approaches to the same landing area.

Better DZs follow USPA's advice to designate separate landing areas for hookers.

[fasted3 0]

Excellent post. Thanks to you and the OP for giving us all a valuable lesson.

But what do I know?

[Teigen 0]

Thanks for great input everyone! I have done most of my skydives at my home DZ. Which is a far less busy one. Having a single T/O. And designated landing zones for swoopers, tandem filmers and other high performance flyers.

I think of myself as a safe jumper, i always check my airspace thoroughly after breakaway etc. And also under canopy. If there's anything i could have done different in this situation, DO tell!

Here are two stills from the vid:
Final1
Final2

He was a bit hard to make out against the fog (pic 1). And there was no way of telling when he was going to make his turn. The incident was seen by several others who told me later. I did not talk to him myself, but he was seen talking to others that saw it later on.

Here is a longer snippet of video, starting earlier.
Clicky

When it comes to jumping with a camera, the minimum jump requirement here are 100, I am fully aware of the fact that some people might be more easily distracted by having a camera on their head. But that has not been an issue with me. I do the jump as planned, and i really don't think about the camera again until after i've landed. As for snag hazards, im jumping a TonFly helmet with the CX100 in a tonfly box. Which to me seems like a pretty safe setup.

Again, thanks to everyone for great responses. Its all food for thought!

- T

[Sangi 0]

The only thing that's mind boggling is why on earth didn't you whoop his ass for that?!

Or at least talk to him

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[riggerrob 643]

Beating on stupid people only makes your fist tired!

[Tomcat933 0]

How many jumps do you guys think is an acceptable number to start jumping with a camera? I'm not thinking about doing it any time soon, its not like i have the money to buy one anyway, I'm just wondering.

[ridestrong 1]

1. Looks to me like you were doing a pretty good job of checking your air-space. Plus I think some are forgetting that you can scan nearly everything in front of you with just your eyes (not saying that you shouldn't have your head on a swivel).

2. Also looks like you and the first 4-5 people ahead of you all followed the exact same landing pattern. At the very least that dude should have had more than enough time to know that he would be going AGAINST everyone else in final. He should have made that 180 WAY sooner as to not invade your air-space. Not to mention that it looks like he is even slightly above you making it even more unforgivable.

As for the camera, 100 jumps seems reasonable, and individual dz's are able to make their own "recommendations". By 100 jumps most intelligent/aware jumpers can grasp the risks involved with wearing a camera. As long as you are able to have that understanding (of added risk) having 200 jumps does not make having a camera on your helmet any safer than with 100 jumps.

Thanks for posting the vid, it's good for anyone to learn from.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[abyzet 0]

MINIMUM of 200 jumps before you consider jumping with a camera. Posted in the USPA SIM. Talk to a camera flyer at your DZ after 200 and I'm sure they'd have plenty of tips and safety procedures for you.

[dorbie 0]

Looks like he saw you, didn't want to call off his hook and decided to cut it close by turning in front of you. (if he didn't see you it's worse).

He wouldn't have known who you were or your ability, it was extremely selfish for him to do this and he needs spoken to. Even if he did it's still too close (that's a wide angle lense I assume and it felt a lot closer at the time) and he's risking a judgement error and/or hitting you with wake turbulence at a low altitude.

If you're going to plan a landing like this you have to be prepared to call it off if you have to. If you're this committed to making your hook turn then you're a danger to yourself and others.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Well, you haven't even try to avoid him. Anyway you have chosen to find the hottest place to land than you have to deal with the unexpected patterns too. You can take 50m walk and keep your peace of mind next time.

[piisfish 140]

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Well, you haven't even try to avoid him. Anyway you have chosen to find the hottest place to land than you have to deal with the unexpected patterns too. You can take 50m walk and keep your peace of mind next time.

I know the landing area, and the OP committed to a narrow part of the landing zone, plus with the rest of traffic coming in, not many alternatives for him.

Add to that the toggle whipper, and you have a high stress landing.

Teigen, next time may I recommend a landing "more in the middle" of the landing area, which will leave you longitudinal and lateral margin. And I would also recommend, in case that kind of thing happens again, talk directly to the person(s) implied, as calm as possible, and if needed get to talk to Ground Safety which certainly have seen the manoeuvres.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[virgin-burner 1]

coming from a dude with 88 jumps!?

where's my popcorn!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

I know the landing area, and the OP committed to a narrow part of the landing zone, plus with the rest of traffic coming in, not many alternatives for him.

Sure, even floating around instead of drilling down....
I don't think there would be too much traffic around the north end of the field.

[monkycndo 0]

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As for the camera, 100 jumps seems reasonable, and individual dz's are able to make their own "recommendations". By 100 jumps most intelligent/aware jumpers can grasp the risks involved with wearing a camera. As long as you are able to have that understanding (of added risk) having 200 jumps does not make having a camera on your helmet any safer than with 100 jumps.

Thanks for posting the vid, it's good for anyone to learn from.

Hmmmmm, looks like you still think it's OK to not follow the SIM. Do us a favor and actually put your face as your avatar. That way we can decide if we want to be on the same plane with someone willing to disregard safety because of the mad skilz they have attained in 88 jumps.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[Andy_Copland 0]

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MINIMUM of 200 jumps before you consider jumping with a camera. Posted in the USPA SIM. Talk to a camera flyer at your DZ after 200 and I'm sure they'd have plenty of tips and safety procedures for you.

This isnt the USPA, you people that quote your SIM need to pull your heads out your arse's. Its not only Americans who use this website, we know you think New York to LA is an around the world trip but the world is bigger.

Happy Smile

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Heatmiser 0]

What, that isn't an accurate map?

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Quote

MINIMUM of 200 jumps before you consider jumping with a camera. Posted in the USPA SIM. Talk to a camera flyer at your DZ after 200 and I'm sure they'd have plenty of tips and safety procedures for you.

This isnt the USPA, you people that quote your SIM need to pull your heads out your arse's. Its not only Americans who use this website, we know you think New York to LA is an around the world trip but the world is bigger.

Happy Smile

No, but when an American responds to an American, it's a reasonable document to reference. (well, I should say when a jumper with the U.S. in their profile responds to another jumper with the U.S. in their profile ... don't want to make any assumptions that U.S. residents are actually Americans. )

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Andy_Copland 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

MINIMUM of 200 jumps before you consider jumping with a camera. Posted in the USPA SIM. Talk to a camera flyer at your DZ after 200 and I'm sure they'd have plenty of tips and safety procedures for you.

This isnt the USPA, you people that quote your SIM need to pull your heads out your arse's. Its not only Americans who use this website, we know you think New York to LA is an around the world trip but the world is bigger.

Happy Smile

No, but when an American responds to an American, it's a reasonable document to reference.

Damn it, i need more coffee. Apologies to that person. I still stand by my map though

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.