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Hooknswoop 19
QuoteREAD THE F---ING MANUAL!
The manual says you can't fire the Cypres under canopy
Derek
Quote
They didn't want to say I couldn't jump it or that I could
sounds like you were trying to pin them down - maybe there was no certain answer - the correct answer was and probably still is something like "it depends..." (probably about what they told you, which obviously is not what you wanted to hear)
one thing that is certain from the manual: "activation speed: approx. >= 78 mph (35 m/s)"
sounds like you did read the manual, and made a decision
Hooknswoop 19
Quotesounds like you were trying to pin them down
I wanted either, "You can jump it." or, "We don't know." or, "Don't jump it." I couldn't get any of the three.
I had a question and I "asked the manufacturer" The manufacturer didn't want to answer.
Quoteone thing that is certain from the manual: "activation speed: approx. >= 78 mph (35 m/s)
What is not certain is how long you have to be at 78mph+.
What is also certain from the manual:
"Whatever you can think of under canopy like stalls, spiral turns, down planes, hookturns with the smallest canopies as well as any CRW, CYPRES will analyze these movements without problems."
Quotesounds like you did read the manual, and made a decision
I had a concern. I couldn't get an answer. I erred on the side of caution (ironically the side of caution was to jump w/o the Cypres), and remove the Cypres. I knew it couldn't misfire and kill me if it wan't installed.
RTFM gives no indication that you could fire the Cypres under canopy. When Airtec realized that it was possible several years ago, they should have released a statement then indicating that it was possible. Of course that would have cost them sales.
Derek
Quote
"Whatever you can think of under canopy like stalls, spiral turns, down planes, hookturns with the smallest canopies as well as any CRW, CYPRES will analyze these movements without problems."
oops, you forgot to finish the quoted paragraph:
"It won't interfere with any normal activities while skydiving."
Webster defines "normal" as "ordinary, average, usual"
Hooknswoop 19
Quote"It won't interfere with any normal activities while skydiving."
And flying a canopy is normal.
Derek
Quote
And flying a canopy is normal.
finally we agree!
billvon 2,991
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>I had a concern. I asked Airtec. They wouldn't say anything either way.
Which is exactly what they should do - because they didn't know. The cypres originally had no problem with the canopies of the time. When you asked them they were starting to question whether smaller canopies/higher performance landings could cause a problem.
>Right, which begs the question, why did they wait?
Because they made a mistake. Happens sometimes.
Which is exactly what they should do - because they didn't know. The cypres originally had no problem with the canopies of the time. When you asked them they were starting to question whether smaller canopies/higher performance landings could cause a problem.
>Right, which begs the question, why did they wait?
Because they made a mistake. Happens sometimes.
Hooknswoop 19
Quotehad a concern. I asked Airtec. They wouldn't say anything either way.
Which is exactly what they should do - because they didn't know.
No, they should say, "We don't know, it may fire." because that is not what the manual says.
Quote
Because they made a mistake. Happens sometimes.
Exactly, and it cost someone their life.
Derek
Chrisky 0
Given my specs, I will not be able to reach these parameters, so to me and my jumping characteristics the manual statements hold true.
Given the experience level someone should have to successfully exceed the parameters and trigger activation, the blame game "the manual said you can do whatever, it will work" IMO is saying that whoever is using the device was not using proper judgment. If you are such an experienced jumper, you MUST be aware of this risk, as the manual states the activation speed in a different section.
Obviously the fact both the 78 mph speed statement and the whatever you can think of statement are in the same manual should make everybody who reads it aware that they should consider that the manual probably talks about the smallest canopies, but doesn't say anything on their wingloading, as well as consider that this statement still holds true for 99.9% of skydivers.
There will never be any manual that absolutely covers all points, all kinds of use, all possibilities.
What will it be?
A manual that is filled with legal and whatever may happen clutter that those 99.9% of skydivers wouldn't even read anymore, resulting in more danger to more people
or
having an athlete, who operates on an extreme side of an extreme sport and who is given enough info to make informed decisions, make a personally judged decision based on his knowledge and experience?
Given the experience level someone should have to successfully exceed the parameters and trigger activation, the blame game "the manual said you can do whatever, it will work" IMO is saying that whoever is using the device was not using proper judgment. If you are such an experienced jumper, you MUST be aware of this risk, as the manual states the activation speed in a different section.
Obviously the fact both the 78 mph speed statement and the whatever you can think of statement are in the same manual should make everybody who reads it aware that they should consider that the manual probably talks about the smallest canopies, but doesn't say anything on their wingloading, as well as consider that this statement still holds true for 99.9% of skydivers.
There will never be any manual that absolutely covers all points, all kinds of use, all possibilities.
What will it be?
A manual that is filled with legal and whatever may happen clutter that those 99.9% of skydivers wouldn't even read anymore, resulting in more danger to more people
or
having an athlete, who operates on an extreme side of an extreme sport and who is given enough info to make informed decisions, make a personally judged decision based on his knowledge and experience?
The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...
perse 0
STOP this......silly conversation.. and blaming Airtec
This handful of highly experienced CP pilots is pushing the limits... Usually it takes some casualties when someone tries something new (harder...faster...). And when you're pushing the limits shouldn't you very carefully find out all the possible details? HOW IS IT POSSIBLE that a swooper like Adrian used cypres even though for example moledsky had already fired his cypres during a hook landing... Adrian was a "professional" swooper and didn't know?....or didn't care (laissez-faire?)....(Probably he just though the cypres might ruin his swoop but couldn't make a mess that would kill him?) Poor Adrian, he made a little mistake and had a very bad luck...
WHY IN THE HELL do you blame Airtec? If doing something such extreme as swooping like experienced CP pilots you need to know exactly what you are doing! Well...smokers can have a lawsuit against cigarette companies...Because they didn't know that it does for sure damage your health. Are you americans really that stupid? Whats next? Lets sue some harness manufacturer because the flaps didn't stay closed in a speed skydive of 400mph...(And the skydiver died because of an accidental reserve deployment...) It wasn't said in the manual that one shoudn't have speed greater than 300 mph!
It is not forbidden to think when skydiving!
If you are not sure, then find out! (If you're not sure that the cypres won't fire accidentally during your swoop, find out! And if the manual says you can't fire the cypres under canopy, think that you're one of the best canopy pilots in the world and doing something that wasn't done half a year ago...pushing the limits)
-perse
This handful of highly experienced CP pilots is pushing the limits... Usually it takes some casualties when someone tries something new (harder...faster...). And when you're pushing the limits shouldn't you very carefully find out all the possible details? HOW IS IT POSSIBLE that a swooper like Adrian used cypres even though for example moledsky had already fired his cypres during a hook landing... Adrian was a "professional" swooper and didn't know?....or didn't care (laissez-faire?)....(Probably he just though the cypres might ruin his swoop but couldn't make a mess that would kill him?) Poor Adrian, he made a little mistake and had a very bad luck...
WHY IN THE HELL do you blame Airtec? If doing something such extreme as swooping like experienced CP pilots you need to know exactly what you are doing! Well...smokers can have a lawsuit against cigarette companies...Because they didn't know that it does for sure damage your health. Are you americans really that stupid? Whats next? Lets sue some harness manufacturer because the flaps didn't stay closed in a speed skydive of 400mph...(And the skydiver died because of an accidental reserve deployment...) It wasn't said in the manual that one shoudn't have speed greater than 300 mph!
It is not forbidden to think when skydiving!
If you are not sure, then find out! (If you're not sure that the cypres won't fire accidentally during your swoop, find out! And if the manual says you can't fire the cypres under canopy, think that you're one of the best canopy pilots in the world and doing something that wasn't done half a year ago...pushing the limits)
-perse
QuoteExactly, and it cost someone their life.
Bull. You cannot put the blame on AirTec. The jumper absorbs the responsibility.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
QuoteQuoteIf they weren't aware there was a proble, why start designing a 'swooper' version?
Possible business decision to compete against the yet to be released ARGUS that has this as a feature?
I think this is bad news. Sadly we now know cypres can be fired by radical canopy manoververs. It is designed for the vast majority of skydivers, and I think the lesson we can take away is if your doing HP radical landings switch it off.
To design ( like Argus) a unit which recognizes deceleration from opening and switches off is getting overtly complicated and asking for trouble.
Example: is it going to get confused by a sudden delceration from a wingsuit flyer, or switch itself off following a mal which has temporaily slowed the jumper down before he cuts , goes back into freefall and can't find his handle? I won't be testing it.
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Practise the 6 P's!
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Practise the 6 P's!
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QuoteExample: is it going to get confused by a sudden delceration from a wingsuit flyer, or switch itself off following a mal which has temporaily slowed the jumper down before he cuts , goes back into freefall and can't find his handle? I won't be testing it.Frown
??? Don't make it so complicated. AAD is not the Holy Grail and its not a replacement for education or currency. That's your last chance. You don't have to know more than stay its operational envelope and act as you don't have any.
If you can not locate your handle/PC you should use your reserve as you learnt.
I have a funny landing if my 32" PC does not collapse. I don't want to have a reserve trailing behind me on landing.
feuergnom 28
QuoteSo why didn't they issue a statement sooner? Like 3 years ago? If I could see this coming, how could Airtec miss it?
and this looks hypocritical to me. if you knew about this issue, like you stated, why didn't you put major effort into this fact being known in these very forums? you (and others) know, that you post a lot (and usually a lot of well thought of information and concerned matter) in here. so why did you just shut up?
looks like a case of: i should have told the audience but i forgot - now i have someone else to blame instead of myself
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle
dudeist skydiver # 666
dudeist skydiver # 666
QuoteQuoteExample: is it going to get confused by a sudden delceration from a wingsuit flyer, or switch itself off following a mal which has temporaily slowed the jumper down before he cuts , goes back into freefall and can't find his handle? I won't be testing it.Frown
??? Don't make it so complicated. AAD is not the Holy Grail and its not a replacement for education or currency. That's your last chance. You don't have to know more than stay its operational envelope and act as you don't have any.
If you can not locate your handle/PC you should use your reserve as you learnt.
I have a funny landing if my 32" PC does not collapse. I don't want to have a reserve trailing behind me on landing.
Did u actually read my post? my point was about keeping things simple
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Practise the 6 P's!
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Practise the 6 P's!
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billvon 2,991
>No, they should say, "We don't know, it may fire."
They did say that. They said it to you and they said it in the 2003 article. (And please don't start dissecting their phrasing and claiming they didn't use the word 'fire' or something - if you understood it, others could.)
>Exactly, and it cost someone their life.
His actions cost him his life. This is one contributing factor.
They did say that. They said it to you and they said it in the 2003 article. (And please don't start dissecting their phrasing and claiming they didn't use the word 'fire' or something - if you understood it, others could.)
>Exactly, and it cost someone their life.
His actions cost him his life. This is one contributing factor.
Reginald 0
Quote
They knew about the potential problem, and they knew about it for quite a while. They made no effort to alert the people who needed to know.
I have to beg to differ. This has been posted for a year now.
“…according to our current knowledge base it is very unlikely that a skydiver will reach the necessary speed for a CYPRES activation after the setup for a high performance landing. This does not mean that something like this may never happen in the future as canopy designs further evolve….We continue to monitor new canopy developments, and have a permanent data gathering program utilizing our data logger technology.”
I read it as Aitec saying that it is unlikely but not impossible to activate a Cypres under canopy. I also read it as the company saying it is keeping any eye on the situation. And that it is using its resources to develop technology for the future when canopies are smaller and people’s canopy skills such that they are hitting the limits of the product.
I don’t’ see this at all as the company lying or trying to hide anything.
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP
Hooknswoop 19
QuoteSTOP this......silly conversation.. and blaming Airtec
LOL, trying to tell me what to do, that is a good one.
QuoteThis handful of highly experienced CP pilots is pushing the limits... Usually it takes some casualties when someone tries something new (harder...faster...).
I don't think a Velocity 96 was pushing the limits or trying something.
QuoteHOW IS IT POSSIBLE that a swooper like Adrian used cypres even though for example moledsky had already fired his cypres during a hook landing... Adrian was a "professional" swooper and didn't know?....or didn't care (laissez-faire?)....(Probably he just though the cypres might ruin his swoop but couldn't make a mess that would kill him?) Poor Adrian, he made a little mistake and had a very bad luck...
He probably did hear of the Cypres fire, but didn't think he was at risk. No way for me to know.
QuoteWHY IN THE HELL do you blame Airtec?
Because they knew in 2001 that it was an issue and didn't put out a statment then.
QuoteIt is not forbidden to think when skydiving!
If you are not sure, then find out! (If you're not sure that the cypres won't fire accidentally during your swoop, find out! And if the manual says you can't fire the cypres under canopy, think that you're one of the best canopy pilots in the world and doing something that wasn't done half a year ago...pushing the limits)
I tried to find out and could not get the information from the manufacturer. Had I not been concerned, this could have been me.
Derek
Hooknswoop 19
Quoteand this looks hypocritical to me. if you knew about this issue, like you stated, why didn't you put major effort into this fact being known in these very forums? you (and others) know, that you post a lot (and usually a lot of well thought of information and concerned matter) in here. so why did you just shut up? Unimpressed
looks like a case of: i should have told the audience but i forgot - now i have someone else to blame instead of myself
I didn't shut up. Here is where I posted what I knew about the issue:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=510164;search_string=cypres%20fire;#510164
Derek
QuoteI don't think a Velocity 96 was pushing the limits or trying something.
Oh really? IIRC Jay set the new world record on a 103 Velocity, and his speed through the gate war over 90 mph.
Doing multiple rotations, starting diving turns over 1000AGL, wearing weight, loading over 2.5, whatever. Point is, if you're gonna be getting close to the firing parameters while under canopy you're foolish for wearing an armed AAD.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
cornishe 0
Waaaaaah...
Stop whining and learn to pull your handles.
There are too many "skydivers" who won't make a jump while their cypress is getting serviced. I'm glad you are there to keep the dz's filled with otters, king airs, porters, and the like, but you still dont fully understand the "gravity" of the situation.
No matter what you say about the manual or company statements, you ALREADY KNEW that you can't trust it 100%.
Save you money, forget the cypress, and forget blaming cypress for not conjuring up the magic spell that makes this hobby of yours as safe as talking shit on dropzone.com.
.
Stop whining and learn to pull your handles.
There are too many "skydivers" who won't make a jump while their cypress is getting serviced. I'm glad you are there to keep the dz's filled with otters, king airs, porters, and the like, but you still dont fully understand the "gravity" of the situation.
No matter what you say about the manual or company statements, you ALREADY KNEW that you can't trust it 100%.
Save you money, forget the cypress, and forget blaming cypress for not conjuring up the magic spell that makes this hobby of yours as safe as talking shit on dropzone.com.
.
Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE
Possible business decision to compete against the yet to be released ARGUS that has this as a feature?
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
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