skyblu3 0 #1 September 29, 2005 Anyone notice the extreme similarity between the Icon and Atom Legend containers. The icon is literally a carbon copy of the Atom Legend. They are even using PDF's pin secured velcroless toggles!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyblu3 0 #2 September 29, 2005 Just to make my point Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #3 September 29, 2005 What's your point? One of the principals in Aerodyne did originaly come from PdF.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #4 September 29, 2005 You are completely wrong. There is a bunch of rigs more similar to Icon than Legend. Just check main flap. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #5 September 29, 2005 not seeing the connection... I also seem to think that most rigs have alot of things in common.. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #6 September 29, 2005 Turn it over and look at the other side.......its completely different.... The Legend has bunch more padding on the back/shoulders and legstraps It has integrity risers...and if you open up the flaps there is quite a design difference inside as well... I think a few rigs just look similar from the back... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #7 September 29, 2005 QuoteWhat's your point? One of the principals in Aerodyne did originally come from PdF. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michel Auvray designed both the Atom and Icon. I perceive Icons as just Atoms with a few minor improvements. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EAerodyne 0 #8 September 29, 2005 Other things to take into consideration is that Benji Reffet, their marketing representative worked for them and then came to work for us for 4 months. Then went back to work for them. Having picked up some of the improvements that we were working on at the time. Michel Auvrey (former design authority at Parachutes de France) was the original designer together with Dominic Hayhurst (Technical Director) Since my involvement with Aerodyne (October 2003) I have become the design authority on all products. I work in close conjunction with our R&D and Design team headed up by Dominic Hayhurst (Technical Director) to make sure that what our customers and riggers want is thought about and included or at least considered in design change and improvements. Since the launch of the ICON We have made over 200 changes to the product most based on customer & rigger feedback. Some of these were entirely cosmetic, others were geometry based in an order to tighten the design parameters around our users/customers needs and wants. Kind Regards and blue Skies Bushman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #9 September 29, 2005 And a beautiful rig it is......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyblu3 0 #10 September 30, 2005 Don't get me wrong I wasn't rtying to bash any one company. I think the Icon is a fantastic container and it will probably be the next container I buy. I just find it interesting between the similarity of designs with equipment within the skydiving industry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 September 30, 2005 Hehehehehehehe...look even closer at ALL the rigs out there and you will see "borrowed" features on every one. I'm sure you'll be happy with any you choose.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #12 September 30, 2005 QuoteDon't get me wrong I wasn't trying to bash any one company. I think the Icon is a fantastic container and it will probably be the next container I buy. I just find it interesting between the similarity of designs with equipment within the skydiving industry. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it designer-push or consumer-pull? There are only a limited number of ways to stuff "X" volume of canopy into "Y" volume of container. If two different riggers design two different systems, the end result will look similar from a distance. For example: I have difficulty distinguishing between Boeings and Airbuses without reading the labels. Back in the 1970s, the formula for opening a new factory included designing a slightly-improved Wonderhog (Bullet, Northern Lite, Security System, etc.). For many years, the formula for starting a new factory consisted of introducing a Vector (with minor improvements like Atom, Conquest, Icon, Innovator 2, Infinity, Mirage, Sidewinder, Talon, ), now the formula includes trying to improve on Javelins (Advance, Dolphin, Genesis, Vortex, Wings, etc.. Hee! Hee! Designer push -> Also consider that many desiglres - of new factories - learned their trade at older factories. For example: both Sandy Reid (Rigging Innovations) and Mr. Farrington (Infinity) used to work at the Relative Workshop, ergo their first products look a lot like Vectors. Original Talons have even been described as "short, fat, West Coast versions of Vectors." The best designers (i,e, Michel Auvray and Jeff Johnson) are too bright to tie themselves to one factory. To keep their minds alive/creative, they need a new puzzle to solve every few years. That is why Mr. Designed containers for Thomas Sports Equipment for a few years, helped the Relative Workshop iron the bugs out of the Vector III, before re-opening the civilian production line at Mirage Systems. Jump Shack likes to brag that they have been in the business so long that they trained many of their competitors. After working with system "A" for a few years, your mind gets into a rut and it becomes difficult to "think outside the box." For example, (in the late 1990s, after working at the Talon factory for 3 years) if you had asked me what my next design would look like, I would have said "a variation on the Genera." Wait a minute, isn't the current-production Talon 3/FS a "variation on the Genera?" Consumer -pull -> is the other side of the equation. Skydiving consumers are an inherently conservative lot, and the older they get, the more "set in their ways" they get. They prefer to let someone else jump a new product for two or three years before they risk their necks on it. Granted, it usually takes a few years for brain-dead, red-neck skydivers to invent new ways of messing up that never crossed the designer's mind in his worst drunken nightmare ultimately, factories are held responsible for all the accidents that occur with their equipment. I lost track of how many times owners of new Talons whined to R.I. that "it doesn't fit like my old Vector." Hint: your old Vector was built for someone 40 pounds heavier than you and four inches shorter. Hah! Hah! Some consumers harshly critique any new gadget - the older the rigger, the more stubborn the criticism. For example, single-pin Pop_Tops may have been fashionable in Europe for a decade (ie. Teardrop), but Fliteline faced HARSH criticism when they introduced Reflexes with one-pin Pop-Tops. To further rile the critics, Fliteline introduced a new concept in bulk distribution (put more reserve bulk along the top edge). This concept eventually became the standard on Voodoo and Mirage, but it was awkward when first introduced. Critics can also be harsh if you disprove any of their long-held myths. For example: when Fliteline introduced their "catapult" system (a second, soft pilotchute attached to the reserve bridle), they de-bunked the old myth that wide bridles created enough drag to lift reserve d-bags off your bag. That generated a harsh back-lash against catapults, so harsh thath Fliteline eventually had to issue a Service Bulletin saying that it was okay to remove catapults from Reflexes, not because there was anything technically wrong with catapults, rather, Fliteline tired of listening to half-informed critics. Now we get to my dilemma: I have a proof-of-concept container prototype on my loft. It has a radically simpler reserve container. I have deployed it dozens of times on the table, but am reluctant to devote the thousands of hours required to get it into production. Much of my fear is based on the notion that I am afraid of listening to thousands of critics repeat thousands of tired myths while criticising my new design. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #13 September 30, 2005 QuoteMuch of my fear is based on the notion that I am afraid of listening to thousands of critics repeat thousands of tired myths while criticising my new design. Do it. Quacks will be quacks, so why let them stop ya?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #14 September 30, 2005 QuoteThat generated a harsh back-lash against catapults, so harsh thath Fliteline eventually had to issue a Service Bulletin saying that it was okay to remove catapults from Reflexes, not because there was anything technically wrong with catapults, rather, Fliteline tired of listening to half-informed critics. I owned a reflex at the time, and although I'm not a rigger, I have always paid very close attention to my gear, and strived to stay informed. The only documented Catapault "save" I remember involved a PC(x2)and freebag entangling with the just cutaway main. I could never understand how that secondary pilot chute was able to provide more drag than the main. There was at least one fatality due to the consequences of the Catapault. A jumper encountered a scenario (that had been predicted by many) that had not been planned for by the designers. When that happened, I finally woke up and began listening the the several riggers around and stopped buying into Flteline's design concept. I had my rigger remove my secondary pilot chute because the test jump sample had become large enough to illuminate flaws inherent to the design. In fairness, (IIRC) the Reflex was the first rig on the market to completely hide the main bridle from the relative wind, an innovation that fortunately is used throughout the industry. The build quality was excellent, as was Fliteline's customer service. The catapault just proved to not be as reliable as anticipated. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #15 September 30, 2005 QuoteThe only documented Catapault "save" I remember... I know of one. My former rigger, who sold me my first rig, a catapult-equipped reflex, told me the story and even though i later found out he's a compulsive liar, I'm inclined to believe him... He's the rigger that caused the problem in the first place: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.skydiving/browse_frm/thread/4ddc8b6de30eedad/c14ac4d6daaa27c0?tvc=1&q=bruce+sully&hl=en#c14ac4d6daaa27c0. According to him, the one jumper was saved by the catapult. That rigger was a BIG reflex fan. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #16 September 30, 2005 QuoteI know of one. My former rigger, who sold me my first rig, a catapult-equipped reflex, told me the story and even though i later found out he's a compulsive liar, I'm inclined to believe him... He's the rigger that caused the problem in the first place. . . . According to him, the one jumper was saved by the catapult. That rigger was a BIG reflex fan. Dave I didn't remember that one. Thanks, I stand corrected. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #17 September 30, 2005 QuoteIn fairness, (IIRC) the Reflex was the first rig on the market to completely hide the main bridle from the relative wind, an innovation that fortunately is used throughout the industry. Wasn't it Vector 3, introduced in 1994? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #18 October 1, 2005 The only documented Catapault "save" I remember involved a PC(x2)and freebag entangling with the just cutaway main. I could never understand how that secondary pilot chute was able to provide more drag than the main. Never heard that one, we did have three saves that I know of involving primary pilot chutes and their owners snagging them on various body/ equipment parts. There was at least one fatality due to the consequences of the Catapault. A jumper encountered a scenario (that had been predicted by many) that had not been planned for by the designers. Never happend. I want you to prove this statement or apologize and withdraw it. If you don't do either, your credibility is shot (at least with me) Mick Cottle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #19 October 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteIn fairness, (IIRC) the Reflex was the first rig on the market to completely hide the main bridle from the relative wind, an innovation that fortunately is used throughout the industry. Wasn't it Vector 3, introduced in 1994? "Two great minds but a single thought"? no. I did see Bills design at the 93 symposium and thought it could be simplified and still work. Aparrently I succeeded. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #20 October 1, 2005 QuoteNever happend. I want you to prove this statement or apologize and withdraw it. If you don't do either, your credibility is shot (at least with me) Unfortunately, I would have to go through long since disposed of back issues of Skydiving Magazine. I was able to find this reference to the incident, however: QuoteFor those who are not familiar with the Reflex, it is a single pin pop top with an extra pilot chute (like a throw out), called the Catapult, attached half way down the bridle. I was up at Cross Keys several weeks ago and arrived two days after the fatality there involving the Catapult The chief rigger who investigated the incident demonstrated what was found and his conclusions which, to me, made sense. The Catapult is designed to help the reserve freebag clear a horseshoe or other garbage over the head by providing an extra pilot chute to inflate and continue the deployment sequence in the event the primary pilot chute is trapped in the garbage. A problem occures, as it apparently did in this incident, when the primary pilot chute clears the garbage, but the secondary pilot chute gets entangled. This entanglment effectively traps the reserve bridle and restricts reserve deployment. Until recently the manufacturer of the Reflex refused to allow the Catapult to be removed, but have changed their position. Now owners may instruct their rigger to remove the secondary pilot chute. Skydiving is dangerous. There is no way around it. The only thing we can do is stack the deck in our favor as much as possible. We do this through training, practice, and equipment. I don't know if the benifits of a second pilot chute on the reserve bridle outweigh the hazards of having one, but then I don't jump a rig so equiped. Anyone with a Reflex should gather as much information as possible and apply that information to themselves with an open mind. No two skydivers are identical; not even two Reflex owners Erik Johnson S&TA, AFFI, SL-I, Sr Rigger I would have been more accurate if I had said the Catapault contributed to this incident, rather than saying that the incident was "due to the consequences of the Catapault." It was however, this particular incident that motivated me to finally listen to the experienced riggers around me, and have my secondary reserve pilot chute removed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #21 October 1, 2005 Quote"Two great minds but a single thought"? no. I did see Bills design at the 93 symposium and thought it could be simplified and still work. Aparrently I succeeded To Fliteline's credit, their BOC setup was as good if not better than any BOC system I see built today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #22 October 2, 2005 I would have been more accurate if I had said the Catapault contributed to this incident, rather than saying that the incident was "due to the consequences of the Catapault." It was however, this particular incident that motivated me to finally listen to the experienced riggers around me, and have my secondary reserve pilot chute removed. Ok first and foremost the fatality occured because the lady in question never pulled the cutaway handle while trailing a bag locked main canopy, the resulting entanglement has happened on numerious occasions to many different rigs with a single reserve pilot chute. Failure to jettison the bag locked main prior to reserve deployment was the cause of the entanglement. An independent investigation confirmed what we (the factory) had deduced from the resulting evidence. The main bridle was looped around the main suspension lines at the deployment bag, thus effectivly locking the main canopy in the bag. We tried many different way to replicate this configuration, the only one that worked was a premature main container opening with the ROL pilot chute still stowed in it's pouch. At some point the main pilot chute was extracted from it's pouch either by the jumper or the wind whipped bridle. The resulting bag lock was not jettisoned prior to reserve deployment. The Catapult had nothing to do with entanglement. The rigger at cross keys had a long and vocal opposition to the Catapult and was only too eager to implicate it in this accident. Another rigger in California tried to implicate the Catapult in the "grommet hangup" fatality but could not and was observed by witnesses present to be visibly annoyed that he could not, he too was a vocal anti Catapult person. Some riggers out there have strong personal predjiduces and minimal engineering backgrounds but still like to be right all of the time, especially when a rival manufacturer (with much to gain) advocates the same posisition. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #13 September 30, 2005 QuoteMuch of my fear is based on the notion that I am afraid of listening to thousands of critics repeat thousands of tired myths while criticising my new design. Do it. Quacks will be quacks, so why let them stop ya?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #14 September 30, 2005 QuoteThat generated a harsh back-lash against catapults, so harsh thath Fliteline eventually had to issue a Service Bulletin saying that it was okay to remove catapults from Reflexes, not because there was anything technically wrong with catapults, rather, Fliteline tired of listening to half-informed critics. I owned a reflex at the time, and although I'm not a rigger, I have always paid very close attention to my gear, and strived to stay informed. The only documented Catapault "save" I remember involved a PC(x2)and freebag entangling with the just cutaway main. I could never understand how that secondary pilot chute was able to provide more drag than the main. There was at least one fatality due to the consequences of the Catapault. A jumper encountered a scenario (that had been predicted by many) that had not been planned for by the designers. When that happened, I finally woke up and began listening the the several riggers around and stopped buying into Flteline's design concept. I had my rigger remove my secondary pilot chute because the test jump sample had become large enough to illuminate flaws inherent to the design. In fairness, (IIRC) the Reflex was the first rig on the market to completely hide the main bridle from the relative wind, an innovation that fortunately is used throughout the industry. The build quality was excellent, as was Fliteline's customer service. The catapault just proved to not be as reliable as anticipated. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #15 September 30, 2005 QuoteThe only documented Catapault "save" I remember... I know of one. My former rigger, who sold me my first rig, a catapult-equipped reflex, told me the story and even though i later found out he's a compulsive liar, I'm inclined to believe him... He's the rigger that caused the problem in the first place: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.skydiving/browse_frm/thread/4ddc8b6de30eedad/c14ac4d6daaa27c0?tvc=1&q=bruce+sully&hl=en#c14ac4d6daaa27c0. According to him, the one jumper was saved by the catapult. That rigger was a BIG reflex fan. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #16 September 30, 2005 QuoteI know of one. My former rigger, who sold me my first rig, a catapult-equipped reflex, told me the story and even though i later found out he's a compulsive liar, I'm inclined to believe him... He's the rigger that caused the problem in the first place. . . . According to him, the one jumper was saved by the catapult. That rigger was a BIG reflex fan. Dave I didn't remember that one. Thanks, I stand corrected. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #17 September 30, 2005 QuoteIn fairness, (IIRC) the Reflex was the first rig on the market to completely hide the main bridle from the relative wind, an innovation that fortunately is used throughout the industry. Wasn't it Vector 3, introduced in 1994? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #18 October 1, 2005 The only documented Catapault "save" I remember involved a PC(x2)and freebag entangling with the just cutaway main. I could never understand how that secondary pilot chute was able to provide more drag than the main. Never heard that one, we did have three saves that I know of involving primary pilot chutes and their owners snagging them on various body/ equipment parts. There was at least one fatality due to the consequences of the Catapault. A jumper encountered a scenario (that had been predicted by many) that had not been planned for by the designers. Never happend. I want you to prove this statement or apologize and withdraw it. If you don't do either, your credibility is shot (at least with me) Mick Cottle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #19 October 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteIn fairness, (IIRC) the Reflex was the first rig on the market to completely hide the main bridle from the relative wind, an innovation that fortunately is used throughout the industry. Wasn't it Vector 3, introduced in 1994? "Two great minds but a single thought"? no. I did see Bills design at the 93 symposium and thought it could be simplified and still work. Aparrently I succeeded. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #20 October 1, 2005 QuoteNever happend. I want you to prove this statement or apologize and withdraw it. If you don't do either, your credibility is shot (at least with me) Unfortunately, I would have to go through long since disposed of back issues of Skydiving Magazine. I was able to find this reference to the incident, however: QuoteFor those who are not familiar with the Reflex, it is a single pin pop top with an extra pilot chute (like a throw out), called the Catapult, attached half way down the bridle. I was up at Cross Keys several weeks ago and arrived two days after the fatality there involving the Catapult The chief rigger who investigated the incident demonstrated what was found and his conclusions which, to me, made sense. The Catapult is designed to help the reserve freebag clear a horseshoe or other garbage over the head by providing an extra pilot chute to inflate and continue the deployment sequence in the event the primary pilot chute is trapped in the garbage. A problem occures, as it apparently did in this incident, when the primary pilot chute clears the garbage, but the secondary pilot chute gets entangled. This entanglment effectively traps the reserve bridle and restricts reserve deployment. Until recently the manufacturer of the Reflex refused to allow the Catapult to be removed, but have changed their position. Now owners may instruct their rigger to remove the secondary pilot chute. Skydiving is dangerous. There is no way around it. The only thing we can do is stack the deck in our favor as much as possible. We do this through training, practice, and equipment. I don't know if the benifits of a second pilot chute on the reserve bridle outweigh the hazards of having one, but then I don't jump a rig so equiped. Anyone with a Reflex should gather as much information as possible and apply that information to themselves with an open mind. No two skydivers are identical; not even two Reflex owners Erik Johnson S&TA, AFFI, SL-I, Sr Rigger I would have been more accurate if I had said the Catapault contributed to this incident, rather than saying that the incident was "due to the consequences of the Catapault." It was however, this particular incident that motivated me to finally listen to the experienced riggers around me, and have my secondary reserve pilot chute removed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #21 October 1, 2005 Quote"Two great minds but a single thought"? no. I did see Bills design at the 93 symposium and thought it could be simplified and still work. Aparrently I succeeded To Fliteline's credit, their BOC setup was as good if not better than any BOC system I see built today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #22 October 2, 2005 I would have been more accurate if I had said the Catapault contributed to this incident, rather than saying that the incident was "due to the consequences of the Catapault." It was however, this particular incident that motivated me to finally listen to the experienced riggers around me, and have my secondary reserve pilot chute removed. Ok first and foremost the fatality occured because the lady in question never pulled the cutaway handle while trailing a bag locked main canopy, the resulting entanglement has happened on numerious occasions to many different rigs with a single reserve pilot chute. Failure to jettison the bag locked main prior to reserve deployment was the cause of the entanglement. An independent investigation confirmed what we (the factory) had deduced from the resulting evidence. The main bridle was looped around the main suspension lines at the deployment bag, thus effectivly locking the main canopy in the bag. We tried many different way to replicate this configuration, the only one that worked was a premature main container opening with the ROL pilot chute still stowed in it's pouch. At some point the main pilot chute was extracted from it's pouch either by the jumper or the wind whipped bridle. The resulting bag lock was not jettisoned prior to reserve deployment. The Catapult had nothing to do with entanglement. The rigger at cross keys had a long and vocal opposition to the Catapult and was only too eager to implicate it in this accident. Another rigger in California tried to implicate the Catapult in the "grommet hangup" fatality but could not and was observed by witnesses present to be visibly annoyed that he could not, he too was a vocal anti Catapult person. Some riggers out there have strong personal predjiduces and minimal engineering backgrounds but still like to be right all of the time, especially when a rival manufacturer (with much to gain) advocates the same posisition. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #23 October 2, 2005 QuoteOk first and foremost the fatality occured because the lady in question never pulled the cutaway handle while trailing a bag locked main canopy . . . An independent investigation confirmed what we (the factory) had deduced from the resulting evidence Did I miss this in the skydiving media, or was it not reported as effectively as the initial reports? (I have no reason to doubt you; your take on the events is consistent with what little info I was able to find about this incident so long after the fact.) At any rate, it appears that I stand corrected, and hope you will accept my apologies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #24 October 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteOk first and foremost the fatality occured because the lady in question never pulled the cutaway handle while trailing a bag locked main canopy . . . An independent investigation confirmed what we (the factory) had deduced from the resulting evidence Did I miss this in the skydiving media, or was it not reported as effectively as the initial reports? (I have no reason to doubt you; your take on the events is consistent with what little info I was able to find about this incident so long after the fact.) At any rate, it appears that I stand corrected, and hope you will accept my apologies. I do accept your apology and if you wish I will try to furnish you with a copy of the original investigation (I'll have to dig for it) and it's conclusions. I hold no malice toward anyone involved with these issues, as emotions ran high and tended to obscure the facts as they stand. We are all guilty of "going on a rant" when we feel strongly on a subject near and dear to us. I feel that it's important to set the record straight regardless of the outcome. Don't ever stop questioning what, in your gut does not feel or sound right. You have restored my faith in you. Rock on dude! Mick Cottle. Reflex (Catapult) designer/ builder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jamostar 0 #25 October 3, 2005 both are mediocre rigs.Sig lines are so stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
