katzurki 0 #1 October 17, 2005 Out of pure curiosity, is there anyone who has tried the Firebolt in both their ZP and Hybrid versions, and can comment on performance differences between the two? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #2 October 17, 2005 QuoteOut of pure curiosity, is there anyone who has tried the Firebolt in both their ZP and Hybrid versions, and can comment on performance differences between the two? AFAIK, there is only a hybrid version. I'm hoping to try one out in the near future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites katzurki 0 #3 October 17, 2005 QuoteQuoteOut of pure curiosity, is there anyone who has tried the Firebolt in both their ZP and Hybrid versions, and can comment on performance differences between the two? AFAIK, there is only a hybrid version. I'm hoping to try one out in the near future. Nope. They offer all-ZP for a 10-15% price increase. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites scrublink 0 #4 October 17, 2005 I demo'd a hybrid version (about 10 jumps). I found it to be one of the few canopies that does what they say it will do. I put five jumps on one loaded about 1.1:1 and about five jumps on another loaded at 1.5:1. They can act wild or mild and the hybrids are easy to pack right from the start. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mx757 4 #5 October 18, 2005 I jump a Firebolt Hybrid and I like it. lots lift on flare too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites katzurki 0 #6 October 18, 2005 Yea... the question is not so much about the Firebolt's performance as it is about the claim that this hybrid thing does not hinder performance. Take two Firebolts, one all ZP, one hybrid, put a thousand jumps on each. Still no difference? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #7 October 18, 2005 Come on! Do you homework! Go check and compare max suspended weight under a ZP and a hybrid! You can do 2000+ jumps on a ZP, 500-600 jumps on a low-cf. Is the ZP harder to pack? Stop whining and learn how to pack. Or make up your mind and buy your hybrid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites katzurki 0 #8 October 18, 2005 QuoteCome on! Do you homework! Go check and compare max suspended weight under a ZP and a hybrid! You can do 2000+ jumps on a ZP, 500-600 jumps on a low-cf. Is the ZP harder to pack? Stop whining and learn how to pack. Or make up your mind and buy your hybrid. You leave me no choice, sir, but to repudiate your petulant expostulations! Seriously, my post wasn't about anything you have said. Not buying a Firebolt nor packing ZP. It wouldn't even be about Firebolts but for it being the perfect example. And have you just claimed that a $1700 elliptical canopy is going to be worthless in 600 jumps? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EvilLurker 2 #9 October 18, 2005 QuoteIs the ZP harder to pack? Does the hybrid have a lot nicer openings? I'd like to read the comparison, too, because I'm of the opinion that a hybrid has better openings and very little loss in performance. And yes, I have a hybrid (Silhouette) and I know how to pack a ZP. I have close to or slightly over 500 jumps on the Silhouette and I don't see any drcrease in performance yet. You sure they'll only last 5-600 jumps? I never heard anyone say that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EvilLurker 2 #10 October 18, 2005 QuoteIt wouldn't even be about Firebolts but for it being the perfect example. I'd be interested in having a comparison, too. My bet is the hybrid has a miniscule decrease in performance vs. the ZP and better openings. That's what I love about my Silhouette, it doesn't need any "special techniques" to get nice openings, and they're consistent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #11 October 18, 2005 QuoteAnd have you just claimed that a $1700 elliptical canopy is going to be worthless in 600 jumps? I have not stated that. And its not about the panform of the canopy, just the material. Hybrids are not the best, they are just a compromise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #12 October 18, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd have you just claimed that a $1700 elliptical canopy is going to be worthless in 600 jumps? I have not stated that. And its not about the panform of the canopy, just the material. Hybrids are not the best, they are just a compromise. what are the advantages and disadvantages of each - I'd like to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about - i.e. someone who designs and manufactures canopies. I have a feeling that it is just plain convenient to make a canopy all zero p. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #13 October 18, 2005 All ZP ? AFAK ribs are not from ZP:). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #14 October 18, 2005 QuoteAll ZP ? AFAK ribs are not from ZP:). On your pilot they're not, but they are on most canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #15 October 18, 2005 I will repeat this question in the instructors' forum. Since most tandem mains are now hybrid, we wonder how long they last. Our oldest SET 400 has worn out 3 or 4 line sets - for a total of probably 1600 jumps and only now is flare performance starting to suffer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #16 October 18, 2005 How long and where? I think they belong together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #17 October 19, 2005 QuoteOut of pure curiosity, is there anyone who has tried the Firebolt in both their ZP and Hybrid versions, and can comment on performance differences between the two? here is some feedback from a discussion I had with John Sherman at JumpShack... -zero p excellent material but not as tough as F111 (ie the best reserves are F111). -F111 easier to pack. -F111 packs smaller. -F111 costs less than zero p. -identical canopies made from all zero p and with bottom skin F111 perform the same. -from aerodynamic standpoint, either the top or the bottom skin can be F111 (he still has trouble with this one). -loss of permeability in bottom skin does not seem to affect overall canopy life. -loss of permeability in the top skin occurs faster than the bottom skin (if both are the same material)*. -if bottom skin is F111 it does not require spanwise reinforcement (less bulk). -the reason most canopies are all zero p is "marketing" - most customers think it is better so that is what they want to buy. *my guess is UV and packing wear and tear is more on the top skin and zero p here is an added advantage. r.m. 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katzurki 0 #3 October 17, 2005 QuoteQuoteOut of pure curiosity, is there anyone who has tried the Firebolt in both their ZP and Hybrid versions, and can comment on performance differences between the two? AFAIK, there is only a hybrid version. I'm hoping to try one out in the near future. Nope. They offer all-ZP for a 10-15% price increase. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scrublink 0 #4 October 17, 2005 I demo'd a hybrid version (about 10 jumps). I found it to be one of the few canopies that does what they say it will do. I put five jumps on one loaded about 1.1:1 and about five jumps on another loaded at 1.5:1. They can act wild or mild and the hybrids are easy to pack right from the start. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mx757 4 #5 October 18, 2005 I jump a Firebolt Hybrid and I like it. lots lift on flare too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katzurki 0 #6 October 18, 2005 Yea... the question is not so much about the Firebolt's performance as it is about the claim that this hybrid thing does not hinder performance. Take two Firebolts, one all ZP, one hybrid, put a thousand jumps on each. Still no difference? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #7 October 18, 2005 Come on! Do you homework! Go check and compare max suspended weight under a ZP and a hybrid! You can do 2000+ jumps on a ZP, 500-600 jumps on a low-cf. Is the ZP harder to pack? Stop whining and learn how to pack. Or make up your mind and buy your hybrid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katzurki 0 #8 October 18, 2005 QuoteCome on! Do you homework! Go check and compare max suspended weight under a ZP and a hybrid! You can do 2000+ jumps on a ZP, 500-600 jumps on a low-cf. Is the ZP harder to pack? Stop whining and learn how to pack. Or make up your mind and buy your hybrid. You leave me no choice, sir, but to repudiate your petulant expostulations! Seriously, my post wasn't about anything you have said. Not buying a Firebolt nor packing ZP. It wouldn't even be about Firebolts but for it being the perfect example. And have you just claimed that a $1700 elliptical canopy is going to be worthless in 600 jumps? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #9 October 18, 2005 QuoteIs the ZP harder to pack? Does the hybrid have a lot nicer openings? I'd like to read the comparison, too, because I'm of the opinion that a hybrid has better openings and very little loss in performance. And yes, I have a hybrid (Silhouette) and I know how to pack a ZP. I have close to or slightly over 500 jumps on the Silhouette and I don't see any drcrease in performance yet. You sure they'll only last 5-600 jumps? I never heard anyone say that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #10 October 18, 2005 QuoteIt wouldn't even be about Firebolts but for it being the perfect example. I'd be interested in having a comparison, too. My bet is the hybrid has a miniscule decrease in performance vs. the ZP and better openings. That's what I love about my Silhouette, it doesn't need any "special techniques" to get nice openings, and they're consistent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #11 October 18, 2005 QuoteAnd have you just claimed that a $1700 elliptical canopy is going to be worthless in 600 jumps? I have not stated that. And its not about the panform of the canopy, just the material. Hybrids are not the best, they are just a compromise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #12 October 18, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd have you just claimed that a $1700 elliptical canopy is going to be worthless in 600 jumps? I have not stated that. And its not about the panform of the canopy, just the material. Hybrids are not the best, they are just a compromise. what are the advantages and disadvantages of each - I'd like to hear from someone who knows what they are talking about - i.e. someone who designs and manufactures canopies. I have a feeling that it is just plain convenient to make a canopy all zero p. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #13 October 18, 2005 All ZP ? AFAK ribs are not from ZP:). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #14 October 18, 2005 QuoteAll ZP ? AFAK ribs are not from ZP:). On your pilot they're not, but they are on most canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #15 October 18, 2005 I will repeat this question in the instructors' forum. Since most tandem mains are now hybrid, we wonder how long they last. Our oldest SET 400 has worn out 3 or 4 line sets - for a total of probably 1600 jumps and only now is flare performance starting to suffer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #16 October 18, 2005 How long and where? I think they belong together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #17 October 19, 2005 QuoteOut of pure curiosity, is there anyone who has tried the Firebolt in both their ZP and Hybrid versions, and can comment on performance differences between the two? here is some feedback from a discussion I had with John Sherman at JumpShack... -zero p excellent material but not as tough as F111 (ie the best reserves are F111). -F111 easier to pack. -F111 packs smaller. -F111 costs less than zero p. -identical canopies made from all zero p and with bottom skin F111 perform the same. -from aerodynamic standpoint, either the top or the bottom skin can be F111 (he still has trouble with this one). -loss of permeability in bottom skin does not seem to affect overall canopy life. -loss of permeability in the top skin occurs faster than the bottom skin (if both are the same material)*. -if bottom skin is F111 it does not require spanwise reinforcement (less bulk). -the reason most canopies are all zero p is "marketing" - most customers think it is better so that is what they want to buy. *my guess is UV and packing wear and tear is more on the top skin and zero p here is an added advantage. r.m. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
