darthur2000 0 #26 June 16, 2010 QuoteEvery student I see slide in on their butt will say they did a Tandem... Do it once on tandem and it sticks.... Yep, I get tired of saying "No tandem ass-slides, big boys and girls land on their feet" to people that started off with tandems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #27 June 17, 2010 Quote Or in other words, compare the cost to repeating your AFF level one to the cost of a tandem. How often does anyone have to repeat level 1? The standards for passing are pretty simple - exit airplane, pull (maybe) , land. L2 and on, yeah, there are a lot of reasons an instructor may fail, er, have them repeat, but the reason L1 is so simple is because of the newness of the experience. I was a tweener type - did tandems in 95 and 00 before taking another group out in 03 and decided to do AFF-1 instead. I can't say how useful the years prior experience was. In my case, tunnel time would have (and eventually proved to be) been more valuable to teach my legs where they should be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #28 June 18, 2010 I don't know, I'm not an AFF instructor. But I was thinking that you should have a semi good arch in order to pass level one? And I'm sure we all know problems arching is not an uncommon issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluetwo 0 #29 June 20, 2010 I feel like what people do comes down to the DZ they go to/start out at. I found Skydive Walterboro when my GF and I decided we wanted to go jump - I consequently got hooked on skydiving - and that's where I started. So if your DZ encourages students to start with AFF that's cool, more power to ya but there are those of us who start out doing SL jumps too._______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #30 June 20, 2010 Actually my home dz requires at least one tandem before AFF. I can see the pros and cons but generally see it as a good idea. Takes away the overload and gives them some idea of what to expect. Any more than that I think has them building bad habits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER160 0 #31 June 21, 2010 Quote Actually my home dz requires at least one tandem before AFF. Wow. Sounds like that DZ is scamming people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #32 June 21, 2010 Quote Quote Actually my home dz requires at least one tandem before AFF. Wow. Sounds like that DZ is scamming people Depends on DZ philosophy. I don't know the percentages, especially in the US, but some DZ's insist on a student demonstrating a competent jump prior to AFF, whether by tandem, IAD, or S/L. (Or tunnel time.) They figure it just isn't worth the hassle for the instructors to have to deal with the first timers who freak out (even if the instructors are trained to handle everything). (FWIW, in Canada, this is that standard for our equivalent PFF program. Plenty of DZ's get a waiver and do first jump PFF, but it is telling that the baseline standard is that PFF students have to prove themselves first.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #33 June 21, 2010 Quote Quote Actually my home dz requires at least one tandem before AFF. Wow. Sounds like that DZ is scamming people mine tried to sell me one, and all i said was "no-no, i'll be back for AFF!" - "yea-yea".. still mocking that instructor with that (she's HOT).. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER160 0 #34 June 21, 2010 There is a difference between recomending a tandem and actually requiring one. Nowhere in the rule book does it say you have to do a tandem skydive before you can do AFF. I wonder how hard their stance really is on that position? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #35 June 21, 2010 QuoteThere is a difference between recomending a tandem and actually requiring one. Nowhere in the rule book does it say you have to do a tandem skydive before you can do AFF. I wonder how hard their stance really is on that position? It is a dz policy. They can do whatever they want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER160 0 #36 June 21, 2010 QuoteQuoteThere is a difference between recomending a tandem and actually requiring one. Nowhere in the rule book does it say you have to do a tandem skydive before you can do AFF. I wonder how hard their stance really is on that position? It is a dz policy. They can do whatever they want. Absolutley correct. They can do whatever they want. So like I said. Scamming students for more money than they actually need to spend... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #37 June 21, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteThere is a difference between recomending a tandem and actually requiring one. Nowhere in the rule book does it say you have to do a tandem skydive before you can do AFF. I wonder how hard their stance really is on that position? It is a dz policy. They can do whatever they want. Absolutley correct. They can do whatever they want. So like I said. Scamming students for more money than they actually need to spend... That is simply your opinion. Others do not agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER160 0 #38 June 21, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThere is a difference between recomending a tandem and actually requiring one. Nowhere in the rule book does it say you have to do a tandem skydive before you can do AFF. I wonder how hard their stance really is on that position? It is a dz policy. They can do whatever they want. Absolutley correct. They can do whatever they want. So like I said. Scamming students for more money than they actually need to spend... That is simply your opinion. Others do not agree. And thats why the USA kicks ass! America! Fuck Yeah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #39 June 21, 2010 >Scamming students for more money than they actually need to spend... Some schools require 8 AFF's instead of 7. Some require a few minutes in the wind tunnel before the first jump. Some require students to go through the ISP after they graduate. I don't think they are all just "scamming" students; doing the absolute minimum is not necessarily doing students any favors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER160 0 #40 June 21, 2010 Quote>Scamming students for more money than they actually need to spend... Some schools require 8 AFF's instead of 7. Some require a few minutes in the wind tunnel before the first jump. Some require students to go through the ISP after they graduate. I don't think they are all just "scamming" students; doing the absolute minimum is not necessarily doing students any favors. Sure it is. Your helping out there wallet by not taking out any bills they dont actually have to. All of those are good recomendations as well but we all know that it can be done without the extra BS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #41 June 21, 2010 >All of those are good recomendations as well but we all know that it >can be done without the extra BS Ted Mayfield tried doing it without "all the extra BS." He's in jail now I believe; I forget how many students died there. Doing the absolute minimum often does not do students any favors. Neither does imposing unnecessary requirements on students. The best instructors know how to balance the two, and will often go with their best judgment over the financial interest of the student (and themselves.) To most of us, the state of a student's health and training is a lot more important than the state of their wallet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #42 June 22, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote There is a difference between recomending a tandem and actually requiring one. Nowhere in the rule book does it say you have to do a tandem skydive before you can do AFF. I wonder how hard their stance really is on that position? It is a dz policy. They can do whatever they want. Absolutley correct. They can do whatever they want. So like I said. Scamming students for more money than they actually need to spend... That is simply your opinion. Others do not agree. And thats why the USA kicks ass! America! Fuck Yeah! i have stickers that say "icarus - fuck yea!"; and i like those so much more! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER160 0 #43 June 22, 2010 Quote>All of those are good recomendations as well but we all know that it >can be done without the extra BS Ted Mayfield tried doing it without "all the extra BS." He's in jail now I believe; I forget how many students died there. Doing the absolute minimum often does not do students any favors. Neither does imposing unnecessary requirements on students. The best instructors know how to balance the two, and will often go with their best judgment over the financial interest of the student (and themselves.) To most of us, the state of a student's health and training is a lot more important than the state of their wallet. But in this case it can be done with the minimum. It has worked thousands of times. Requiring a tandem skydive in order to do AFF before you even know hat kind of student your going to get just strikes me as shady Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #44 June 22, 2010 Quote Absolutley correct. They can do whatever they want. So like I said. Scamming students for more money than they actually need to spend... You're presuming an awful lot here. Skydive Chicago's AFP program requires two teaching tandems before going to a single jump-master AFF jumps. The total cost of the program is comparable to the standard method because of the savings from the single-jump master. I don't work at Skydive Chicago, but I do work sometimes at CSC where they recomend tandems but do not require them. With certainty I can say that jumpers who do a tandem first have a much easier time with the first few jumps and they most definitely do have a higher pass rate. A great example, just a few weeks ago we had an AFF student so full of his own bravado that he insisted on doing his first jump AFF despite recommendations. He ended up riding the plane down an emotional wreck, and sure wasted a lot of money on that jump. He would have saved a lot of money had he done a tandem first. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #45 June 22, 2010 Quote But in this case it can be done with the minimum. It has worked thousands of times. Requiring a tandem skydive in order to do AFF before you even know hat kind of student your going to get just strikes me as shady I know that EmpuriaBrava does a tandem as a first jump. They have very good experiences with this. The see that a lot of students have to redo less levels. Their AFF course with the tandem is not more expensive than a "normal" AFF course. They teach a lot of stuff during this first jump and the student gets a experience (like flying the landing pattern). Of course they do not charge a normal tandemprice, but it is part of the packageprice. BTW why improve something that functions ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #46 June 22, 2010 QuoteAbsolutley correct. They can do whatever they want. So like I said. Scamming students for more money than they actually need to spend... You may consider it a "scam", but I can see the benefits. It puts a student in freefall so they can experience it with little responsibilities. They get hands on, one on one canopy coaching. In fact, I have taken a few people who just do not seem to "get" canopy control on a tandem and they were able to understand many concepts they "knew", but were unable to put into practice. I personally, think it is a great idea to have a tandem or tunnel before AFF. As an AFFI I have seen problem students get much better after a Tandem or some tunnel. So for a DZ to require one, IMO, is not a scam."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
