Reverse riser discussion

[Mattias 0]

I can't see why reversed risers would give you trouble pulling the handle, however I can see problems with the reversed three rings releasing in some situations. Tandem systems are not allowed to have reversed risers anymore, reason enough for me to stay away from them.
-If god allmighty Bill and his words wouldn't be enough that is...

The only advantage with reversed risers that I can think of is that some poeple think they look good.

_______________________________________
What goes up, must come down...

[TomAiello 26]

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In BASE however, how I understand it, the reverse risers are stronger because of the lack of the hole in the center.

The strength difference between a properly constructed no-grommet (i.e. reversed) riser and a properly constructed grommet riser is not significant in actual BASE use.

The important difference for BASE is the one that Nick DG pointed out above--when you drag the "standard" (i.e. non-reversed) riser toward you to stow the lines, you scrape the white loop on the ground. There has been an actual failure of this white loop (which is the smallest, most delicate part of the critical system attaching the parachute to the jumper), resulting in severe injury to the jumper.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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I ask this with the understanding that non-reinforced mini risers are a thing of the past.

They are not. Jump Shack still apparently makes non-reinforced Type 17 risers. I've seen a few pairs recently.

This article explains their reasoning.

[medic0079 0]

wow ive been jumping with reversed risers for years now had 1 cutaway (baglock) worked fine, no prob cutting away and released quickly, although since ive trusted bill's creativity to save my life a lot through my skydiving carear ill take him at his word and replace my risers (now where to get the $$)

[mr2mk1g 10]

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I can't see why reversed risers would give you trouble pulling the handle

There's one less lever in the system so by definition there is more force transferred to the teflon cable than with standard risers. This can increase the pull force and in a high-force spinning mal this could make the difference between being able to cutaway or not.

[Mattias 0]

Aah, thanks now I see what you mean. I would guess that last lever would make little difference but I have no empirical data to support this. Still Mr. Booth (may we all hail his wisdom in this case) don't like them so I think I'll stay away from them anyway.

I actully like my three rings to glimmer in the sun, that way I know the weather is good enough to jump in...

_______________________________________
What goes up, must come down...

[darkwing 5]

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Aah, thanks now I see what you mean. I would guess that last lever would make little difference but I have no empirical data to support this. ...

The last lever is a factor of two, so its absence will double the friction.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[rhys 0]

Seeing as your question has already been answered, maybe you can answer my question... 


What is wrong with a standard riser set-up that the reverse risers improves upon?  


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absolutely nothing.


the reason i asked about reverse risers is i am a DZSO and someone at my d.z. uses reverse risers. i want to be informed of any potential hazard.


i jump a vector3 and vector2 tandem 
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

			
		

		

			
				
					

	
	
		

			
				
				

					
				
			
			
			
		
	

				
			
			

				
					
						

							
						
						

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[riggermick 7]

There's one less lever in the system so by definition there is more force transferred to the teflon cable than with standard risers.

It's not teflon coated cable it's Lolon coated cable. Unless it's a Jump Shack (red) cable.

Mick.

[billbooth 10]

There is one less PULLEY in the system. The rings are levers...the white loop is a pulley. The point here is, again, that reversed risers offer no real advantages, and several real disadvantages. The are just like soft housings. They work MOST of the time. However, when my life is at stake, I prefer ALL of the time. How about you?

[skyblu3 0]

If you have seen problems with reverse risers, why have you not replaced your risers with conventional risers?

[skyblu3 0]

Pictures here

[thepollster 0]

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If you have seen problems with reverse risers, why have you not replaced your risers with conventional risers?

Would you go against the manufacturers recomendations and change the risers on your rig. PDF rigs all come with integrity risers, I have contacted them in the past about changing the risers and they don't recommend it, they don't even manufacture a standard riser. So if PDF owners were to change they would have to use a riser from another manufacturer. Mismatching gear is recipe for more trouble.
If you were told that Aerodyne's miniforce system was the best would you rush out and change your risers even though the particular manufacturer of your rig told you not to.

[billbooth 10]

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If you have seen problems with reverse risers, why have you not replaced your risers with conventional risers?

Would you go against the manufacturers recomendations and change the risers on your rig. PDF rigs all come with integrity risers, I have contacted them in the past about changing the risers and they don't recommend it, they don't even manufacture a standard riser. So if PDF owners were to change they would have to use a riser from another manufacturer. Mismatching gear is recipe for more trouble.
If you were told that Aerodyne's miniforce system was the best would you rush out and change your risers even though the particular manufacturer of your rig told you not to.

[Treejumps 0]

*** "but in the USA, the rigger is responsible for determining compatibility."

Not exactly. The rigger is responsable for the certificated parts, IE, the reserve and the H/C. The main, including the risers are not TSO'd, and not packed or otherwise certified by the rigger.

I would submit to you that the jumper who assumes that his rigger is making sure his main and risers are properly fitted and maintained shoud learn more about his or her gear, and assume the responsibilty that is properly their's.

[terheggen 0]

Reverse risers for sale

I have my atom rig for more then 5 years now, and enjoyed jumping it lots. I have had discussions before about reverse risers and never really taken action to it but now is the time to say good bye to my risers. One other point I hate about reverse risers is that you cannot properly inspect you’re loop for wear and tear when it is packed. What has cost me a day of jumping, because it was not safe to jump due to wear and what was not noticed before.....(repack, year check) When I noticed I was quit shocked to see how much it was cut and what it could have resulted in.....

Jumping is not all about fashion….think safety first!

[Falko 0]

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Reverse risers for sale

Well then from what I know, you would have to sell the whole rig. I've emailed PdF in July already, asking if I may replace the reversed risers with standard risers (my favorite are Aerodynes)
Answer was "no" because it would void the TSO.

They don't even offer updating an "old" (mine is DOM 2002) Atom Legend with a Freefly handle (requires sewing a little plug pouch on the container).

Note: Noone from PdF said it's not recommended because of technical incompatibility (compatibility which of course has to be confirmed by a rigger anyway), the argument was certification.


edit2add:
... my "dream" riser would be one that had Aerodynes Miniforce 3-rings and Parachutes-de-France Toggle attachment system (1 Pin upwards, 2 fabric sockets downwards).
No break fires ever, and least cutaway force.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[terheggen 0]

[IanHarrop 41]

According to this post

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1906689#1906689

the risers are not TSO'd so as I understand things changing them would not void the TSO of the rig.

That doesn't fit with what you heard from PdF..... what's right?

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[kissrg 0]

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If you have a bag lock that doesn't open your riser covers, or two canopies out with your risers are drawn back across your shoulders, you can't breakaway.

Bill,

I understand the "two canopies out situation" but if there is not enough drag to open the riser covers then I cannot see any difference between reverse or normal risers. Did I miss something?

Robert

[skydiverek 63]

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If you have a bag lock that doesn't open your riser covers, or two canopies out with your risers are drawn back across your shoulders, you can't breakaway.

Bill,

I understand the "two canopies out situation" but if there is not enough drag to open the riser covers then I cannot see any difference between reverse or normal risers. Did I miss something?

Robert

Yes. If the risers are drawn BACK ACROSS the shoulders, there will NOT be a room for the rings to "flip" and release. In other words, the "flip through motion" will be restricted by the shoudler pressure AGAINST the 3-ring system.

[kissrg 0]

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If you have a bag lock that doesn't open your riser covers, or two canopies out with your risers are drawn back across your shoulders, you can't breakaway.

Bill,

I understand the "two canopies out situation" but if there is not enough drag to open the riser covers then I cannot see any difference between reverse or normal risers. Did I miss something?

Robert

Yes. If the risers are drawn BACK ACROSS the shoulders, there will NOT be a room for the rings to "flip" and release. In other words, the "flip through motion" will be restricted by the shoudler pressure AGAINST the 3-ring system.

In other words can you imagine if your normal risers released but the riser covers would stay closed?

Robert

[skydiverek 63]

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In other words can you imagine if your normal risers released but the riser covers would stay closed?

Riser covers have NOTHING to do with that. Please check the LAST paragraph and the LAST photo on this page:

http://www.bpa.org.uk/skydive/pages/articles/dec03/cutting-away.html

That's what's Bill Both and I meant few posts ago in this thread.

Your misunderstanding probably comes from the fact that Bill Booth talked about TWO SEPERATE scenarios: FIRST one with a baglock and closed riser covers, and SECOND one with two canopies out (no riser covers mentioned, since that's not the problem in this SECOND scenario).

No personal attack intented

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[kissrg 0]

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In other words can you imagine if your normal risers released but the riser covers would stay closed?

Riser covers have NOTHING to do with that. Please check the LAST paragraph and the LAST photo on this page:

http://www.bpa.org.uk/skydive/pages/articles/dec03/cutting-away.html

That's what's Bill Both and I meant few posts ago in this thread.

Your misunderstanding probably comes from the fact that Bill Booth talked about TWO SEPERATE scenarios: FIRST one with a baglock and closed riser covers, and SECOND one with two canopies out (no riser covers mentioned, since that's not the problem in this SECOND scenario).

No personal attack intented

My poor English may causes the problem :)

I have no problem with the second scenario but I don't understand the first one. Bill stated that "If you have a bag lock that doesn't open your riser covers ... you can't breakaway." I agree with that statement but in that case it is just the same what type of risers you have, isn't it?

Robert

[dorbie 0]

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If you have seen problems with reverse risers, why have you not replaced your risers with conventional risers?

Would you go against the manufacturers recomendations and change the risers on your rig. PDF rigs all come with integrity risers, I have contacted them in the past about changing the risers and they don't recommend it, they don't even manufacture a standard riser. So if PDF owners were to change they would have to use a riser from another manufacturer. Mismatching gear is recipe for more trouble.
If you were told that Aerodyne's miniforce system was the best would you rush out and change your risers even though the particular manufacturer of your rig told you not to.