Reverse riser discussion

[luis 0]

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I agree with that statement but in that case it is just the same what type of risers you have, isn't it?

..a little test we made right after the "Australian incident" back in 2004...
We tried to simulate a baglock and see if the concerns are valid for a combination of PdF risers and MirageG3.
It turned out that I could actually lift the person off the floor, holding the risers, while the cutaway cable was completely removed from 3 rings. They did not release until the "jumper" grabbed the risers and shook them off.

Needless to say, that person got rid of reverse risers the same day

[Falko 0]

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According to this post
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1906689#1906689
the risers are not TSO'd so as I understand things changing them would not void the TSO of the rig.

Well since there is a TSO-Label on each of my PdF reversed risers ("TSO C23d") I believe they have been certified as part of the harness indeed. That would comply with the answers I've received from the PdF support stating that using third party risers would void the TSO of the Atom Legend.

I don't know but maybe in the USA some/all manufacturers don't include the risers in the TSO? Can someone here give an answer to this please?

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That doesn't fit with what you heard from PdF..... what's right?

No it doesn't, but we're comparing apples and oranges.
It seems there is no "general" answer to this question. Best is to always ask the manufacturer!

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[mjosparky 4]

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Well since there is a TSO-Label on each of my PdF reversed risers ("TSO C23d") I believe they have been certified as part of the harness indeed. That would comply with the answers I've received from the PdF support stating that using third party risers would void the TSO of the Atom Legend.

You can put a TSO label on your shorts but that does not make them a TSO'd component of you gear.

These are the components included in TSO-C23d.

AS8015-B

2.1.2 SINGLE HARNESS RESERVE PARACHUTE ASSEMBLY: A certificated parachute assembly
(including the reserve deployment initiation device, deployment control device, canopy, risers, stowage
container, harness, and actuation device) that is worn in conjunction with a main parachute assembly used for premeditated jumps.

Using different risers on your main does not void a TSO.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JerryBaumchen 1,355]

Sorry Sparkles,
You can 'TSO' a set of main risers. You can 'TSO' any parachute component if you want to go through the testing and all else that the certification requirements entail. Back in the day, Pioneer 'TSO'd' the ParaCommander by putting a longer than normal bridle between the canopy & the pilot chute. I'm thinking that the normal bridle would not meet the opening time req'ments.
Also, it is illegal (in this country) to placard something with a TSO label if it is not actually 'TSO'd.' That is if anyone checks.

[mjosparky 4]

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Sorry Sparkles,
You can 'TSO' a set of main risers. You can 'TSO' any parachute component if you want to go through the testing and all else that the certification requirements entail. Back in the day, Pioneer 'TSO'd' the ParaCommander by putting a longer than normal bridle between the canopy & the pilot chute. I'm thinking that the normal bridle would not meet the opening time req'ments.
Also, it is illegal (in this country) to placard something with a TSO label if it is not actually 'TSO'd.' That is if anyone checks.

You are right. I should have read the complete document. The way I read this, the main risers can only be used with the system they were certificated with.

Sparky

5. COMPONENT QUALIFICATIONS:

5.1 Parachutes may be qualified as complete assemblies or as separate components (such as a canopy, a stowage container [pack], and/or a riser/s. The airworthiness of a parachute assembly, including other separately approved nonoriginal components, is the responsibility of the manufacturer who performs the certificating tests for the parachute assembly. The manufacturer shall publish and make available a list of interchangeable components which have passed the following tests in 4.3 when tested in conjunction with the assembly or component(s) being certificated.

5.1.1 Canopy Including Suspension Lines: 4.3.3, 4.3.4.1 (or 4.3.4.2), 4.3.5, 4.3.6, 4.3.7, 4.3.8, 4.3.9

5.1.2 Deployment Device: 4.3.3, 4.3.4.1 (or 4.3.4.2), 4.3.5, 4.3.6, 4.3.9

5.1.3 Pilot Chute (Including Bridle): 4.3.3, 4.3.4.1 (or 4.3.4.2), 4.3.5, 4.3.6, 4.3.9

5.1.4 Stowage Container (Pack): 4.3.2.1, 4.3.2.3, 4.3.3, 4.3.6, 4.3.4.1 (or 4.3.4.2), 4.3.5, 4.3.9

5.1.5 Harness: 4.3.4.1, 4.3.6, 4.3.9

5.1.6 Actuation Device (Ripcord and/or Reserve Static Line): 4.3.1, 4.3.2, 4.3.6.2, 4.3.9

5.1.7 Actuation Device (Reserve Static Line): 4.3.1, 4.3.6.2

5.1.8 Riser(s): 4.3.4.1 (or 4.3.4.2), 4.3.6, 4.3.9

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 643]

Backing up mjosparky:

Earlier TSOs (-C23B and -C23C) ignored main risers, but TSO-C23D includes some performance standards for main release systems.

[bob.dino 1]

If I follow this discussion correctly, does that mean:

• If your harness-container is certified under TSO-C23B or -C23C you can put any main risers you like on it.


• If your h/c is certified under TSO-C23D the manufacturer must have a list of what components were certified, and if the main risers are on the list, you can't swap to another brand.

Correct?


(Far too many uses of the word if in that post.)

[JerryBaumchen 1,355]

Let me go back to my original post on this: If you want you can get a TSO-authorization for any parachute component. It is a matter of going through all of the hoops to do so.
For a set of main risers; why bother to do it? IMO, it would be foolish, but it can be done. It's a lot of work for little (if any) reward.
I do not read anything in C23b, C23c or C23d where it specifically prevents one from doing so.
Does someone else read it differently?
Case in point: Back in the early 80's I submitted the necessary paperwork/documentation to get a TSO-authorization (and that is the correct terminology but I know we all just say 'TSO') for a ripcord. Due to a FAA blunder or two, I got my hands on some internal hand-written notes that were going around in the Seattle Aircraft Certification Office wondering just how far down should they issue specific TSO-authorizations; they didn't know. They eventually issued it and I have it.